Why PTs Struggle to Negotiate (And What to Do About It)

WEBVTT

00:00:01.750 --> 00:00:02.991
You're listening to the P.T.

00:00:03.011 --> 00:00:03.692
Pinecast,

00:00:03.811 --> 00:00:05.854
where smart people in healthcare come to

00:00:05.873 --> 00:00:07.054
make noise.

00:00:07.094 --> 00:00:08.635
Here's your host, Jimmy McKay.

00:00:11.598 --> 00:00:12.519
And we're back.

00:00:12.839 --> 00:00:15.702
Welcome to Off Script with Rebecca

00:00:15.742 --> 00:00:16.161
Griffith.

00:00:16.181 --> 00:00:17.722
We used to call it like books and

00:00:17.763 --> 00:00:18.184
stuff.

00:00:18.243 --> 00:00:19.364
That was like your recurring.

00:00:19.664 --> 00:00:20.925
And we used to talk about books more

00:00:21.006 --> 00:00:21.306
often.

00:00:21.887 --> 00:00:22.626
Yeah, I've been busy.

00:00:22.687 --> 00:00:24.388
I did finish a book this weekend, though.

00:00:24.428 --> 00:00:25.068
What did you finish?

00:00:26.070 --> 00:00:27.071
I think Essentialism.

00:00:27.710 --> 00:00:28.332
Oh, I don't know that one.

00:00:28.882 --> 00:00:29.803
That's good.

00:00:29.823 --> 00:00:31.303
We should go back to a book club

00:00:31.564 --> 00:00:32.125
sort of format.

00:00:32.145 --> 00:00:33.485
Maybe they'll get me back into reading.

00:00:33.566 --> 00:00:34.546
I go on spurts.

00:00:34.686 --> 00:00:36.247
When I was traveling a lot for work,

00:00:36.307 --> 00:00:37.588
I was reading like two books at a

00:00:37.689 --> 00:00:38.128
time.

00:00:38.350 --> 00:00:39.490
Like I would take a break from a

00:00:39.530 --> 00:00:40.892
book with a book.

00:00:41.472 --> 00:00:42.993
And now I don't think I've read a

00:00:43.012 --> 00:00:44.073
book in the last eight months.

00:00:44.094 --> 00:00:44.875
Okay.

00:00:44.975 --> 00:00:46.316
We need to fix that.

00:00:46.335 --> 00:00:47.277
I go through phases.

00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:50.621
But I talk to people a lot.

00:00:50.901 --> 00:00:52.542
So that to me is also good as

00:00:52.582 --> 00:00:52.783
well.

00:00:53.122 --> 00:00:54.524
Rebecca Griffith, Jimmy McKay,

00:00:54.585 --> 00:00:55.585
we had a discussion,

00:00:57.366 --> 00:00:59.948
a sort of like a text sort of

00:01:00.329 --> 00:01:01.610
convo where I was like,

00:01:01.691 --> 00:01:04.474
what is the big hairy scary?

00:01:04.634 --> 00:01:06.635
What is the big hairy scary thing that's

00:01:06.656 --> 00:01:07.977
going on with you that you're like,

00:01:08.037 --> 00:01:10.899
I wish this was easier or better or

00:01:10.938 --> 00:01:12.000
I wish I understood more?

00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:12.861
And what is it for you?

00:01:12.900 --> 00:01:13.941
What did you throw out there to me?

00:01:13.962 --> 00:01:14.662
So negotiating.

00:01:15.082 --> 00:01:15.763
Negotiating.

00:01:17.381 --> 00:01:17.960
is the thing.

00:01:17.980 --> 00:01:19.703
In what way?

00:01:19.742 --> 00:01:20.724
So I feel like, well,

00:01:20.804 --> 00:01:22.325
realistically in many ways, right?

00:01:22.385 --> 00:01:22.924
I think it's like,

00:01:22.944 --> 00:01:24.165
and you and I have talked about,

00:01:24.225 --> 00:01:26.168
we did a book club on like the

00:01:26.207 --> 00:01:27.209
art of negotiation,

00:01:27.728 --> 00:01:29.430
but I still feel like it's really easy

00:01:29.469 --> 00:01:31.171
to tell other people how to negotiate.

00:01:31.212 --> 00:01:32.893
And when it like comes down to like

00:01:32.912 --> 00:01:34.894
the actual person doing the negotiating,

00:01:34.935 --> 00:01:35.655
it's really hard.

00:01:36.135 --> 00:01:37.596
And I think one thing that really shocked

00:01:37.637 --> 00:01:39.117
me over the last year or two was

00:01:39.677 --> 00:01:41.420
just when I'm looking at payment for

00:01:41.459 --> 00:01:42.239
physical therapists,

00:01:42.781 --> 00:01:44.361
one of the statistics I heard is that

00:01:44.542 --> 00:01:44.861
most

00:01:46.355 --> 00:01:48.197
practice owners don't ever try to

00:01:48.236 --> 00:01:49.597
renegotiate their rates,

00:01:49.718 --> 00:01:50.959
either with insurance companies.

00:01:51.138 --> 00:01:52.560
The number of people that actually try to

00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:54.001
renegotiate is extremely low.

00:01:54.581 --> 00:01:56.162
And when I talk to other PTs about

00:01:56.201 --> 00:01:56.902
negotiation,

00:01:56.981 --> 00:01:59.004
it feels like it's a weak spot for

00:01:59.063 --> 00:01:59.203
us.

00:01:59.243 --> 00:02:00.444
So that's why I wanted to talk about

00:02:00.463 --> 00:02:00.504
it.

00:02:00.584 --> 00:02:01.765
Personally, a weak spot.

00:02:01.825 --> 00:02:02.325
Professionally,

00:02:02.406 --> 00:02:03.506
I feel like it's a weak spot.

00:02:04.746 --> 00:02:06.808
There are cultures where if you don't

00:02:06.947 --> 00:02:07.629
negotiate,

00:02:09.088 --> 00:02:12.350
you are seen as like it's confusing to

00:02:12.390 --> 00:02:12.792
them.

00:02:13.231 --> 00:02:13.372
Yeah.

00:02:14.259 --> 00:02:17.082
There are cultures where it is expected

00:02:17.423 --> 00:02:18.963
and it is confusing when you don't.

00:02:19.724 --> 00:02:21.186
I don't think my culture and your culture

00:02:21.265 --> 00:02:21.926
are those cultures.

00:02:22.026 --> 00:02:23.467
I think negotiation feels like a

00:02:23.608 --> 00:02:26.030
challenge.

00:02:26.210 --> 00:02:26.651
Number one,

00:02:26.711 --> 00:02:28.611
challenge in the word that it's hard for

00:02:28.692 --> 00:02:28.872
us.

00:02:29.193 --> 00:02:29.772
Number two,

00:02:30.032 --> 00:02:31.735
it feels like I'm pushing back against

00:02:31.794 --> 00:02:31.995
you.

00:02:32.275 --> 00:02:33.436
Like a job,

00:02:33.756 --> 00:02:36.117
like talking to a patient about why I'm

00:02:36.157 --> 00:02:36.938
raising your rates.

00:02:37.118 --> 00:02:39.241
Those are all negotiating of why you

00:02:39.260 --> 00:02:39.920
should... Hey,

00:02:39.980 --> 00:02:41.603
you'd like to hire me for this project.

00:02:42.832 --> 00:02:43.633
My rate is this.

00:02:43.693 --> 00:02:44.735
Well, we only have that.

00:02:45.036 --> 00:02:46.377
Well, we are now negotiating.

00:02:46.418 --> 00:02:50.703
And this feels icky, awkward, bad.

00:02:51.183 --> 00:02:51.944
It feels weird.

00:02:52.064 --> 00:02:52.985
And I don't know, too.

00:02:53.507 --> 00:02:54.448
I'm going to throw this out there, too.

00:02:54.487 --> 00:02:55.729
I don't know if it's a generational thing.

00:02:55.750 --> 00:02:57.372
Like my kids are great negotiators.

00:02:58.834 --> 00:02:59.175
Really?

00:02:59.254 --> 00:03:00.036
Why do you think that is?

00:03:00.730 --> 00:03:02.032
I don't know if it's just like they

00:03:02.051 --> 00:03:03.973
don't have an issue with understanding

00:03:03.993 --> 00:03:06.576
their value and like they feel safe going

00:03:06.616 --> 00:03:07.198
back and forth.

00:03:07.298 --> 00:03:08.558
I would like to do this for ten

00:03:08.579 --> 00:03:09.840
more minutes before I go to bed time.

00:03:09.860 --> 00:03:11.122
What if I do this and not that?

00:03:11.201 --> 00:03:12.582
I understand why you want me to do

00:03:12.622 --> 00:03:12.862
this.

00:03:13.223 --> 00:03:14.764
And maybe that's just like I've raised

00:03:14.784 --> 00:03:16.046
them to be able to have this back

00:03:16.106 --> 00:03:16.426
and forth.

00:03:16.866 --> 00:03:18.990
But I feel like to like newer grads

00:03:19.030 --> 00:03:19.650
and things like that,

00:03:19.689 --> 00:03:20.991
when I when I talk to them about

00:03:21.012 --> 00:03:22.513
they're going into interview for their

00:03:22.574 --> 00:03:24.414
first jobs, they will say, you know,

00:03:24.436 --> 00:03:25.896
I didn't take that job because we couldn't

00:03:26.236 --> 00:03:27.419
we couldn't get close enough on the

00:03:27.459 --> 00:03:28.159
negotiation.

00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:29.200
So I don't know.

00:03:29.281 --> 00:03:30.842
I feel like I was taught to like.

00:03:33.164 --> 00:03:34.445
Take what you were offered, right?

00:03:34.485 --> 00:03:35.366
Like, right.

00:03:35.426 --> 00:03:36.989
Be thankful.

00:03:37.128 --> 00:03:37.870
Earn more labor.

00:03:39.593 --> 00:03:41.496
like even if you think about like how

00:03:41.536 --> 00:03:43.356
we were given dinner at night, right?

00:03:43.396 --> 00:03:44.957
Like you can eat this or you can

00:03:45.018 --> 00:03:45.658
not eat at all.

00:03:45.679 --> 00:03:45.799
Right.

00:03:46.179 --> 00:03:47.280
Right.

00:03:47.340 --> 00:03:48.420
Now it could be more seen more of,

00:03:48.461 --> 00:03:49.382
I don't have kids, but I've,

00:03:49.622 --> 00:03:50.862
I've seen it and heard it from friends.

00:03:50.923 --> 00:03:52.003
It's more of a negotiation.

00:03:52.544 --> 00:03:53.786
Well, I'm like, you know,

00:03:53.846 --> 00:03:55.026
here's the thing that we've made for

00:03:55.067 --> 00:03:55.326
dinner.

00:03:55.447 --> 00:03:56.568
I'm going to make sure that some of

00:03:56.608 --> 00:03:58.088
the side items are something that I know

00:03:58.169 --> 00:03:59.590
everybody will enjoy and eat.

00:03:59.650 --> 00:04:01.252
And then if they want to eat something

00:04:01.312 --> 00:04:01.512
else,

00:04:01.572 --> 00:04:02.973
they can negotiate that after they've

00:04:03.032 --> 00:04:03.652
eaten their dinner,

00:04:03.713 --> 00:04:04.653
whatever the case may be.

00:04:04.734 --> 00:04:04.935
Right.

00:04:05.414 --> 00:04:07.977
But you know, I was definitely like,

00:04:08.257 --> 00:04:09.038
this is what's for dinner.

00:04:09.806 --> 00:04:10.387
Yeah.

00:04:10.426 --> 00:04:10.667
All right.

00:04:10.706 --> 00:04:11.987
So the goal is to walk out of

00:04:12.008 --> 00:04:13.968
this conversation with a listener or a

00:04:14.008 --> 00:04:15.789
viewer and at least have,

00:04:16.129 --> 00:04:17.271
you're going to throw out three

00:04:17.350 --> 00:04:19.291
suggestions on how to do it better,

00:04:19.432 --> 00:04:20.812
make it feel better, any of those things.

00:04:20.911 --> 00:04:21.552
I'll do three.

00:04:21.952 --> 00:04:24.173
So you'll at least have six suggestions

00:04:24.533 --> 00:04:26.454
and maybe one or two or all six

00:04:26.875 --> 00:04:28.576
will be actionable for you.

00:04:29.315 --> 00:04:30.396
So I'll let you go first.

00:04:30.716 --> 00:04:32.158
When you sort of thought about this and

00:04:32.177 --> 00:04:33.377
then talking about it to others,

00:04:33.918 --> 00:04:35.178
and we don't know what our suggestions

00:04:35.218 --> 00:04:35.778
are, by the way.

00:04:35.819 --> 00:04:37.079
So we might have crossover,

00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:38.261
which I think is not a bad thing.

00:04:38.281 --> 00:04:39.120
I think it might be a good thing.

00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:41.021
So my first thing,

00:04:41.060 --> 00:04:43.002
because when I go to negotiate,

00:04:43.122 --> 00:04:45.605
I feel like it feels very personal to

00:04:45.625 --> 00:04:46.706
me, even though it's not.

00:04:47.367 --> 00:04:47.487
Agreed.

00:04:47.507 --> 00:04:49.670
It feels like I am asking you to

00:04:49.730 --> 00:04:50.872
judge my value.

00:04:51.052 --> 00:04:55.115
I am asking to like declare myself a

00:04:55.175 --> 00:04:55.737
value.

00:04:55.836 --> 00:04:58.339
So my first solution is to shift away

00:04:58.379 --> 00:04:59.500
from it being about me.

00:05:00.521 --> 00:05:03.043
and shift towards the impact that I'm

00:05:03.122 --> 00:05:03.483
bringing.

00:05:04.163 --> 00:05:05.083
So is it about me?

00:05:05.242 --> 00:05:05.463
No,

00:05:05.562 --> 00:05:07.444
it's about the impact that I can bring

00:05:07.644 --> 00:05:10.185
to you and why is that valuable to

00:05:10.225 --> 00:05:11.524
the person I'm negotiating with.

00:05:11.944 --> 00:05:13.565
So I'm not asking you to judge me

00:05:13.625 --> 00:05:14.206
as a person.

00:05:14.225 --> 00:05:16.125
I'm asking you to judge the impact that

00:05:16.146 --> 00:05:17.127
I'm bringing to you.

00:05:17.547 --> 00:05:19.266
And I think that helps me.

00:05:19.747 --> 00:05:21.387
So I'm not great at negotiating for

00:05:21.427 --> 00:05:21.987
myself,

00:05:22.028 --> 00:05:24.129
but I am great at negotiating for patient

00:05:24.149 --> 00:05:25.488
care and systems impact, right?

00:05:25.689 --> 00:05:28.411
okay good so it sounds like the first

00:05:28.451 --> 00:05:31.213
suggestion you're throwing out there is to

00:05:31.312 --> 00:05:34.394
change what's being negotiated stop

00:05:34.415 --> 00:05:35.995
thinking about it as you're negotiating

00:05:36.016 --> 00:05:39.177
about you and then so how would you

00:05:39.218 --> 00:05:41.059
give someone like sort of tactical advice

00:05:41.098 --> 00:05:42.339
on how to actually change that

00:05:42.379 --> 00:05:46.362
conversation so i think like um my first

00:05:46.382 --> 00:05:47.702
thing would be just like framing your

00:05:47.742 --> 00:05:48.744
mindset around it

00:05:49.966 --> 00:05:51.307
Like think about what is the thing.

00:05:51.427 --> 00:05:53.009
So say somebody asked you to come and

00:05:53.069 --> 00:05:54.750
do a presentation for their clinic.

00:05:54.771 --> 00:05:55.951
For example, you're an expert,

00:05:55.971 --> 00:05:58.033
say maybe in pelvic health and another

00:05:58.093 --> 00:05:59.555
practice is asking you to come in and

00:05:59.576 --> 00:06:00.737
give a presentation on that.

00:06:01.336 --> 00:06:03.480
Is it about you as like a person

00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:05.261
or is it about the expertise and impact

00:06:05.321 --> 00:06:07.002
and value you're going to give to their

00:06:07.062 --> 00:06:07.442
clinic?

00:06:07.843 --> 00:06:10.386
What worth does that value have?

00:06:10.747 --> 00:06:12.869
Not necessarily you giving a talk.

00:06:14.172 --> 00:06:14.312
I agree.

00:06:14.331 --> 00:06:16.132
So check your mindset about that.

00:06:16.153 --> 00:06:18.213
I think you shift away from who you

00:06:18.293 --> 00:06:19.514
are because you're not the thing being

00:06:19.553 --> 00:06:20.274
negotiated.

00:06:20.293 --> 00:06:21.134
Right.

00:06:21.214 --> 00:06:25.175
And this is dinner or a later bedtime

00:06:25.516 --> 00:06:27.716
or the price of a product or a

00:06:27.776 --> 00:06:29.117
project and you put it on...

00:06:30.377 --> 00:06:32.199
That's why I like to ask qualifying

00:06:32.218 --> 00:06:33.920
questions like, what are we solving for?

00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:35.581
So do you think I'm going to give

00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:37.800
you a better solution, a faster solution?

00:06:39.041 --> 00:06:40.983
Are we talking... I ask people...

00:06:42.098 --> 00:06:44.439
to envision a seesaw and the two things

00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:47.060
on the seesaw are the cost or the

00:06:47.100 --> 00:06:48.120
price on one side.

00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:50.081
And we quickly want to negotiate that one.

00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:51.661
And I think I call that and other

00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:52.740
people have called that a race to the

00:06:52.781 --> 00:06:53.081
bottom.

00:06:54.862 --> 00:06:56.622
Can I, do I bring more value?

00:06:56.822 --> 00:06:57.822
We can get someone else to do it

00:06:57.882 --> 00:06:58.322
cheaper.

00:07:00.642 --> 00:07:02.262
Are we solving for cheap or are we

00:07:02.283 --> 00:07:03.423
solving for solved?

00:07:03.704 --> 00:07:04.824
Are we solving for good?

00:07:05.144 --> 00:07:06.124
Are we solving for bad?

00:07:06.184 --> 00:07:07.365
If you're solving for cheap,

00:07:07.425 --> 00:07:08.545
I got a list of people I could

00:07:08.584 --> 00:07:09.125
suggest to you.

00:07:10.144 --> 00:07:11.704
they're going to have varying degrees of

00:07:11.805 --> 00:07:13.985
better of what that is.

00:07:14.086 --> 00:07:15.245
I like that.

00:07:15.365 --> 00:07:15.786
Yeah.

00:07:15.805 --> 00:07:17.225
So that's my number one is make it,

00:07:17.286 --> 00:07:17.925
it's not about you.

00:07:18.485 --> 00:07:20.807
It's about... There it is.

00:07:21.007 --> 00:07:21.906
That's number one.

00:07:22.067 --> 00:07:23.826
It's actually not about you.

00:07:24.067 --> 00:07:26.067
It's about their problem, your solution,

00:07:26.148 --> 00:07:28.187
and what comes out of that, the result.

00:07:28.367 --> 00:07:30.608
So talk about the result.

00:07:30.649 --> 00:07:30.949
All right.

00:07:30.988 --> 00:07:33.108
So my first suggestion is sort of in

00:07:33.149 --> 00:07:34.009
line with yours,

00:07:34.928 --> 00:07:36.089
which is I'll tell people,

00:07:36.410 --> 00:07:38.069
stop asking for more money.

00:07:39.548 --> 00:07:41.629
I want you to find people who are

00:07:41.668 --> 00:07:44.029
better buyers.

00:07:44.069 --> 00:07:46.290
So instead of trying to get blood from

00:07:46.310 --> 00:07:50.452
a stone, that doesn't happen.

00:07:50.973 --> 00:07:54.173
So I have taken on the goal of

00:07:54.213 --> 00:07:55.654
trying to get to the no as quickly

00:07:55.694 --> 00:07:56.274
as possible.

00:07:57.776 --> 00:08:01.036
I cannot do two things well at the

00:08:01.076 --> 00:08:01.656
same time.

00:08:01.898 --> 00:08:02.557
No one can.

00:08:02.718 --> 00:08:03.817
There's research on this.

00:08:03.877 --> 00:08:04.658
Someone will find it.

00:08:05.509 --> 00:08:06.709
We are not multitaskers.

00:08:06.750 --> 00:08:08.009
We are multi-doers.

00:08:08.509 --> 00:08:11.732
We can do lots of things poorly.

00:08:11.752 --> 00:08:12.971
This is slightly different though.

00:08:14.452 --> 00:08:16.973
What I'm saying is I can't convince you

00:08:17.454 --> 00:08:20.555
of the problem and the solution at the

00:08:20.596 --> 00:08:21.495
same time.

00:08:22.497 --> 00:08:23.958
If you don't think that there's a

00:08:24.017 --> 00:08:24.557
problem...

00:08:26.408 --> 00:08:28.509
Me trying to convince you that there is

00:08:28.668 --> 00:08:30.930
makes me feel like I'm selling snake oil.

00:08:31.730 --> 00:08:32.990
And a lot of times makes the other

00:08:33.030 --> 00:08:34.471
person feel like they're snake oil too.

00:08:34.731 --> 00:08:36.753
I'll give you a ridiculous example and

00:08:36.773 --> 00:08:37.493
then I'll reel it in.

00:08:38.453 --> 00:08:39.553
My dad was a fireman.

00:08:40.174 --> 00:08:42.655
He never had to convince people that their

00:08:42.696 --> 00:08:43.556
house was on fire.

00:08:44.636 --> 00:08:45.057
It was.

00:08:45.837 --> 00:08:46.857
By the time that they called,

00:08:47.717 --> 00:08:48.859
and the time that the bell rang and

00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:50.100
they slid down the pole and got on

00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.520
the fire truck, there was no negotiation.

00:08:53.547 --> 00:08:55.668
That's an extreme sort of facetious,

00:08:55.749 --> 00:08:56.730
ridiculous example.

00:08:57.190 --> 00:08:58.110
But I don't think that it is.

00:08:58.731 --> 00:09:00.293
Which is,

00:09:02.556 --> 00:09:04.778
if I'm talking to someone who owns a

00:09:04.857 --> 00:09:06.558
business that I think I could help,

00:09:07.419 --> 00:09:09.861
but they don't think what I do is

00:09:09.923 --> 00:09:10.743
a... Sorry.

00:09:11.043 --> 00:09:12.804
If they don't think they have a problem

00:09:12.965 --> 00:09:14.706
that I am positioned to solve,

00:09:15.147 --> 00:09:16.489
I don't try to convince them

00:09:18.100 --> 00:09:19.181
that they have the problem.

00:09:19.520 --> 00:09:20.822
What I'm looking for is people with

00:09:20.883 --> 00:09:23.465
problems, not people with situations.

00:09:23.585 --> 00:09:24.466
And I used to just say,

00:09:24.525 --> 00:09:27.970
let's say I wanted to solve media problems

00:09:28.009 --> 00:09:28.830
for clinic owners.

00:09:29.471 --> 00:09:31.432
If they don't think creating media is a

00:09:31.493 --> 00:09:32.114
problem,

00:09:32.413 --> 00:09:34.155
I've now got to create that problem.

00:09:34.416 --> 00:09:35.557
And I don't want to do that.

00:09:35.736 --> 00:09:36.538
It's a lot of effort.

00:09:36.798 --> 00:09:38.038
It feels disingenuous.

00:09:38.299 --> 00:09:39.321
If they don't think that they have that

00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:40.642
problem, in my mind, they don't.

00:09:41.956 --> 00:09:43.437
They only have the problem once they

00:09:43.477 --> 00:09:44.918
believe they have the problem.

00:09:45.659 --> 00:09:47.140
Same with therapy if we're going to stay

00:09:47.160 --> 00:09:47.660
in PT.

00:09:48.042 --> 00:09:49.802
If you don't think that that's a problem,

00:09:50.783 --> 00:09:52.524
me selling you physical therapy as a

00:09:52.625 --> 00:09:54.527
service gets real hard.

00:09:54.907 --> 00:09:56.168
Yeah.

00:09:56.207 --> 00:09:59.671
I think that you should be paying

00:09:59.691 --> 00:10:01.432
attention to people who have the problem,

00:10:01.892 --> 00:10:03.533
people who don't believe that they have

00:10:03.573 --> 00:10:04.153
that problem.

00:10:05.355 --> 00:10:06.316
I'm very glad for you.

00:10:07.623 --> 00:10:09.764
I think the other point about what you

00:10:09.783 --> 00:10:11.443
said about getting blood from a stone is

00:10:11.484 --> 00:10:13.585
you need to know who's got the blood.

00:10:14.365 --> 00:10:14.764
Correct.

00:10:15.544 --> 00:10:16.845
So that you're not spending time

00:10:16.904 --> 00:10:18.485
negotiating with people who never were

00:10:18.586 --> 00:10:21.145
going to be able to play ball either.

00:10:21.225 --> 00:10:22.907
And I think a lot of PTs don't

00:10:22.927 --> 00:10:25.447
know who they should be negotiating with.

00:10:25.668 --> 00:10:26.148
Correct.

00:10:26.248 --> 00:10:28.307
A lot of healthcare providers,

00:10:28.327 --> 00:10:29.589
their market is everyone.

00:10:30.349 --> 00:10:30.729
And I'm like,

00:10:30.808 --> 00:10:31.769
I'm going to need you to carve that

00:10:31.808 --> 00:10:31.948
up.

00:10:32.208 --> 00:10:33.490
I'm going to need you to carve everyone

00:10:33.570 --> 00:10:35.090
up down to people...

00:10:36.134 --> 00:10:37.456
who might have this problem?

00:10:37.696 --> 00:10:38.975
And then how do you figure out the

00:10:39.015 --> 00:10:40.956
people who might have this problem from

00:10:40.976 --> 00:10:43.599
that smaller subset who believe they have

00:10:43.619 --> 00:10:44.198
that problem?

00:10:44.578 --> 00:10:45.580
And one step further,

00:10:46.379 --> 00:10:48.681
who are willing to invest time, effort,

00:10:48.701 --> 00:10:50.621
or money into solving it?

00:10:52.403 --> 00:10:53.503
Time, effort, money, if you're able,

00:10:53.543 --> 00:10:53.763
right?

00:10:54.163 --> 00:10:55.323
Do you want this solved?

00:10:56.225 --> 00:10:56.565
Yes.

00:10:57.125 --> 00:10:58.706
Are you willing to invest?

00:10:58.985 --> 00:11:00.746
Are you willing to pay me or do

00:11:00.807 --> 00:11:00.886
it?

00:11:02.153 --> 00:11:04.315
Well, call me back when you are.

00:11:04.916 --> 00:11:05.235
Yeah.

00:11:05.616 --> 00:11:06.197
Respectfully,

00:11:06.957 --> 00:11:08.559
I don't think I've ever convinced anybody

00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:09.100
of anything.

00:11:09.760 --> 00:11:11.802
I think my favorite Peloton instructor has

00:11:11.842 --> 00:11:13.565
the line that if I'm going to get

00:11:13.585 --> 00:11:14.426
a tattoo, that would be it.

00:11:15.106 --> 00:11:16.087
I make suggestions.

00:11:16.447 --> 00:11:17.328
You make decisions.

00:11:17.750 --> 00:11:19.191
If you don't think it's a problem,

00:11:19.792 --> 00:11:21.472
I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

00:11:21.594 --> 00:11:21.754
Okay.

00:11:23.407 --> 00:11:24.967
But if you do have that problem and

00:11:24.988 --> 00:11:26.149
you do want it to go away,

00:11:26.428 --> 00:11:26.610
I mean,

00:11:26.649 --> 00:11:28.451
someone famous that I can't remember said,

00:11:28.811 --> 00:11:30.493
if you have a problem that costs a

00:11:30.552 --> 00:11:32.833
thousand dollars to solve and you have a

00:11:32.875 --> 00:11:35.336
thousand dollars and you're not solving

00:11:35.397 --> 00:11:36.998
it, you have decided not to solve that.

00:11:37.097 --> 00:11:38.259
Megan Brown, my friend,

00:11:38.599 --> 00:11:42.142
says an excuse is a problem you decided

00:11:43.243 --> 00:11:43.962
not to solve.

00:11:45.302 --> 00:11:46.461
And I told her, I was like,

00:11:46.642 --> 00:11:49.023
that's crochet on a pillow.

00:11:50.043 --> 00:11:52.524
Yeah, I don't like that one.

00:11:52.543 --> 00:11:56.004
An excuse is a problem you have decided

00:11:56.825 --> 00:11:57.686
not to solve.

00:11:58.166 --> 00:11:58.926
So that's my first,

00:11:58.946 --> 00:12:01.846
which is find the right people first

00:12:02.486 --> 00:12:04.288
instead of trying to negotiate with the

00:12:04.347 --> 00:12:05.327
wrong people.

00:12:05.388 --> 00:12:06.248
Not bad people.

00:12:06.567 --> 00:12:07.288
These people aren't bad.

00:12:07.668 --> 00:12:08.589
They don't have the problem.

00:12:08.629 --> 00:12:10.049
They don't want to solve it your way.

00:12:10.629 --> 00:12:12.049
That's their right.

00:12:12.669 --> 00:12:14.691
Who are you to convince them otherwise?

00:12:15.130 --> 00:12:17.111
So that's a negotiation thing.

00:12:17.172 --> 00:12:19.592
And sometimes the negotiation thing is

00:12:19.613 --> 00:12:20.274
with yourself.

00:12:20.533 --> 00:12:21.553
The first step is yourself.

00:12:21.774 --> 00:12:22.735
I believe in that.

00:12:22.754 --> 00:12:25.296
All right.

00:12:25.316 --> 00:12:28.638
What's your second idea or suggestion?

00:12:29.437 --> 00:12:31.099
That you need to negotiate the scope

00:12:31.158 --> 00:12:31.980
before the payment.

00:12:32.740 --> 00:12:34.900
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:37.221
Talk more about this because I agree and

00:12:37.261 --> 00:12:38.582
think everyone should understand this.

00:12:39.147 --> 00:12:41.748
Because I think part of it is unfulfilled

00:12:41.807 --> 00:12:43.687
expectations, right?

00:12:44.067 --> 00:12:46.308
If somebody hires you to come in, Jimmy,

00:12:46.328 --> 00:12:48.950
and fix all of their content,

00:12:49.250 --> 00:12:50.710
but they don't understand what the goal of

00:12:50.750 --> 00:12:52.311
that content is,

00:12:52.331 --> 00:12:55.412
you can give them three times daily

00:12:55.451 --> 00:12:55.892
content.

00:12:55.932 --> 00:12:57.452
But is the goal to drive people to

00:12:57.472 --> 00:12:58.113
their business?

00:12:58.133 --> 00:12:59.192
Is their goal clicks?

00:12:59.212 --> 00:12:59.692
Is it likes?

00:12:59.732 --> 00:13:00.472
Is it followers?

00:13:00.613 --> 00:13:01.874
Is it conversions?

00:13:02.453 --> 00:13:03.594
What is the actual goal?

00:13:03.953 --> 00:13:06.115
And then you don't know what work you're

00:13:06.154 --> 00:13:07.676
supposed to do for them if you don't

00:13:07.735 --> 00:13:08.875
understand the scope of that.

00:13:09.035 --> 00:13:12.538
So I think understanding the goal and the

00:13:12.597 --> 00:13:14.019
scope of the work that you're doing,

00:13:14.379 --> 00:13:16.721
how are you supposed to create the value

00:13:17.101 --> 00:13:19.102
and then add a price to that value

00:13:19.143 --> 00:13:20.423
and then negotiate that?

00:13:20.864 --> 00:13:23.225
And I think if they don't know what

00:13:23.285 --> 00:13:24.206
the scope is,

00:13:24.407 --> 00:13:26.248
they don't know what they're paying for.

00:13:26.447 --> 00:13:27.428
And when you say...

00:13:29.215 --> 00:13:30.615
This is going to cost five thousand

00:13:30.657 --> 00:13:31.197
dollars.

00:13:31.297 --> 00:13:31.778
And they're like,

00:13:31.817 --> 00:13:33.779
that shouldn't cost five thousand dollars.

00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:34.299
Well,

00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:35.761
let me tell you what the scope of

00:13:35.802 --> 00:13:36.702
that work is.

00:13:36.743 --> 00:13:38.043
And if you divide that out per hour,

00:13:38.124 --> 00:13:39.566
it's like when people complain about

00:13:40.066 --> 00:13:40.667
daycare,

00:13:40.986 --> 00:13:43.028
like the cost of how much daycare is.

00:13:43.089 --> 00:13:43.769
And I get it.

00:13:43.929 --> 00:13:44.831
I've got three kids.

00:13:44.890 --> 00:13:45.110
Right.

00:13:45.130 --> 00:13:47.634
There's a reason why I didn't work full

00:13:47.673 --> 00:13:48.815
time for a very long time.

00:13:49.957 --> 00:13:52.778
if you think about the dollar per minute

00:13:53.038 --> 00:13:55.500
of care that is being provided to your

00:13:55.659 --> 00:14:00.542
biggest most precious item per day hours

00:14:00.601 --> 00:14:03.543
minutes per week and that includes safety

00:14:03.844 --> 00:14:08.004
fun enrichment food like all of those

00:14:08.024 --> 00:14:11.186
things socialization if you if you divide

00:14:11.206 --> 00:14:13.326
that out like per minute per use of

00:14:13.547 --> 00:14:15.107
value gosh it's such a good

00:14:15.836 --> 00:14:17.216
you're actually getting a really great

00:14:17.235 --> 00:14:17.475
deal.

00:14:17.535 --> 00:14:18.475
It's like when I go to buy a

00:14:18.515 --> 00:14:19.557
new cell phone and I'm like,

00:14:19.756 --> 00:14:21.356
oh my gosh, this is so expensive.

00:14:21.417 --> 00:14:22.437
Do you know what they say to me

00:14:22.537 --> 00:14:23.596
every time that gets me?

00:14:23.996 --> 00:14:24.277
What?

00:14:24.357 --> 00:14:25.337
How many times do you use it?

00:14:25.418 --> 00:14:28.018
How many times per day do you use

00:14:28.057 --> 00:14:28.638
your phone?

00:14:28.837 --> 00:14:29.758
It's a bajillion.

00:14:30.778 --> 00:14:32.278
And how much does this cost?

00:14:32.678 --> 00:14:33.458
A thousand dollars.

00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:35.860
And if you divide that out for how

00:14:35.899 --> 00:14:37.500
many years you're going to have it and

00:14:37.539 --> 00:14:39.019
how many times you're going to use it,

00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:41.441
it's a pretty banging good deal, right?

00:14:42.260 --> 00:14:43.880
I think you're in the tenths of pennies.

00:14:44.980 --> 00:14:45.340
Correct.

00:14:47.261 --> 00:14:48.302
But if you don't know the scope of

00:14:48.423 --> 00:14:48.562
it,

00:14:48.903 --> 00:14:50.565
if you don't know the scope of it

00:14:50.865 --> 00:14:52.265
and they don't know the scope of it,

00:14:52.626 --> 00:14:54.708
you're negotiating with no foundation.

00:14:54.749 --> 00:14:55.188
Correct.

00:14:55.509 --> 00:14:56.190
That's brilliant,

00:14:56.570 --> 00:14:59.072
which also shines a light on why geriatric

00:14:59.413 --> 00:15:01.453
and pediatric physical therapists are

00:15:01.975 --> 00:15:04.876
wildly underpaid.

00:15:05.038 --> 00:15:07.539
Wildly for what they provide,

00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:09.000
what they actually provide.

00:15:09.280 --> 00:15:10.201
So I see them.

00:15:13.057 --> 00:15:15.385
Yes.

00:15:15.586 --> 00:15:19.921
This is misaligned expectations.

00:15:21.109 --> 00:15:23.831
So if you expect X and X is

00:15:23.931 --> 00:15:24.230
low,

00:15:25.032 --> 00:15:26.273
and then I throw you a price that

00:15:26.312 --> 00:15:27.613
is Y and Y is...

00:15:28.933 --> 00:15:30.335
It almost doesn't even matter what it is.

00:15:30.855 --> 00:15:32.317
If I say, hey,

00:15:32.376 --> 00:15:33.437
I got this thing for sale.

00:15:33.476 --> 00:15:34.457
It's ten thousand dollars.

00:15:34.498 --> 00:15:36.038
Your first reaction is, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:15:36.078 --> 00:15:36.700
That's insane.

00:15:37.220 --> 00:15:38.181
But what if I told you it was

00:15:38.221 --> 00:15:38.681
a house?

00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:39.822
You're like, oh, suddenly.

00:15:40.182 --> 00:15:41.562
So as soon as you understand the scope,

00:15:41.643 --> 00:15:42.964
all of a sudden things come in clear.

00:15:43.384 --> 00:15:46.025
Saying I provide daycare and it's

00:15:46.871 --> 00:15:47.812
I don't even know what daycare is.

00:15:47.832 --> 00:15:48.913
I don't want to throw out two thousand

00:15:48.953 --> 00:15:49.835
dollars a month a week.

00:15:49.875 --> 00:15:51.035
I don't even like something wild.

00:15:51.096 --> 00:15:51.375
Right.

00:15:51.897 --> 00:15:54.339
But it's like I'm going to provide the

00:15:54.438 --> 00:15:57.902
safety, education, socialization, food,

00:15:57.961 --> 00:16:00.543
shelter and warmth for your child.

00:16:01.304 --> 00:16:02.605
Forty hours a week.

00:16:03.366 --> 00:16:04.467
You don't think that's worth two grand?

00:16:04.727 --> 00:16:05.328
Like walk me.

00:16:05.609 --> 00:16:06.149
Oh, got it.

00:16:06.450 --> 00:16:07.451
But daycare.

00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:11.000
Daycare looks like swings and a slide and

00:16:11.041 --> 00:16:11.760
some blocks.

00:16:12.081 --> 00:16:13.201
That's not what it is though.

00:16:13.562 --> 00:16:13.922
So yes,

00:16:14.523 --> 00:16:18.043
the scope needs to be negotiated first.

00:16:19.205 --> 00:16:21.186
Then you attach a value to what that

00:16:21.346 --> 00:16:23.047
is, right?

00:16:23.547 --> 00:16:25.347
Then here's the power move,

00:16:25.408 --> 00:16:26.488
all yes and your move,

00:16:26.528 --> 00:16:29.409
which is if they would like to pay

00:16:29.450 --> 00:16:31.029
less or they just honestly don't have it

00:16:31.070 --> 00:16:33.171
or don't want to, you decrease the scope.

00:16:33.672 --> 00:16:34.211
Correct.

00:16:34.231 --> 00:16:35.371
You don't have to be done with the

00:16:35.412 --> 00:16:36.133
negotiation.

00:16:36.153 --> 00:16:36.513
Correct.

00:16:37.495 --> 00:16:39.056
You've negotiated the scope now,

00:16:39.096 --> 00:16:41.096
and then that drives the remainder of the

00:16:41.157 --> 00:16:41.897
negotiation.

00:16:43.038 --> 00:16:44.019
Yep.

00:16:44.178 --> 00:16:46.480
You decrease the scope.

00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:48.260
You shrink the scope,

00:16:48.721 --> 00:16:50.902
not the value per unit.

00:16:51.123 --> 00:16:52.423
And that's not to say you need to

00:16:52.442 --> 00:16:53.464
charge per hour.

00:16:54.323 --> 00:16:56.946
Do you know who Chris Doe is?

00:16:57.966 --> 00:16:58.427
I've heard that.

00:16:58.547 --> 00:16:58.807
Yes.

00:16:59.331 --> 00:17:01.094
Chris Doe, he has this great,

00:17:01.193 --> 00:17:02.975
he's a graphic designer by trade,

00:17:03.014 --> 00:17:04.556
but he's sort of a thinker and creative

00:17:04.596 --> 00:17:04.836
guy.

00:17:05.396 --> 00:17:06.959
And he has this great video online of

00:17:06.999 --> 00:17:08.759
him interacting with someone in a workshop

00:17:08.779 --> 00:17:09.661
that's obviously there.

00:17:10.300 --> 00:17:10.981
And Chris is like,

00:17:11.021 --> 00:17:12.742
this logo is worth ten thousand dollars.

00:17:12.763 --> 00:17:13.384
And the guy's like,

00:17:13.624 --> 00:17:15.185
I don't think that it is.

00:17:15.326 --> 00:17:16.567
And he's like, why?

00:17:16.586 --> 00:17:16.866
And he's like,

00:17:16.886 --> 00:17:17.988
because you're going to go design that.

00:17:18.028 --> 00:17:19.990
It's going to take you an hour.

00:17:21.068 --> 00:17:22.048
And you're in charge with ten thousand

00:17:22.088 --> 00:17:22.429
dollars.

00:17:22.789 --> 00:17:24.430
And he's like, OK, well,

00:17:24.730 --> 00:17:26.770
so you value time more than quality.

00:17:26.911 --> 00:17:28.010
He's like, well, yeah.

00:17:28.070 --> 00:17:28.891
And he's like, great.

00:17:29.051 --> 00:17:31.211
Then I'm going to take your money,

00:17:31.291 --> 00:17:32.071
ten thousand dollars,

00:17:32.472 --> 00:17:33.432
and then I'll call you back in six

00:17:33.452 --> 00:17:33.653
months.

00:17:34.353 --> 00:17:35.272
I'll take six months to do it.

00:17:35.653 --> 00:17:37.433
I could do it in an hour because

00:17:37.493 --> 00:17:38.815
I'm that good.

00:17:38.835 --> 00:17:40.194
So do you want the result of the

00:17:40.214 --> 00:17:41.375
interaction or do you want to know that

00:17:41.414 --> 00:17:42.875
I'm slaving away for it?

00:17:43.435 --> 00:17:44.976
Does it matter?

00:17:44.996 --> 00:17:45.217
Right.

00:17:46.116 --> 00:17:46.876
I mean,

00:17:47.017 --> 00:17:48.417
you need to describe this to health care

00:17:48.438 --> 00:17:48.817
providers.

00:17:48.877 --> 00:17:49.258
Not at all.

00:17:49.962 --> 00:17:52.926
Because this fee for service,

00:17:55.990 --> 00:17:57.452
if I can get you better in three

00:17:57.472 --> 00:17:57.952
visits,

00:17:58.193 --> 00:18:00.316
the person who takes twenty four is

00:18:00.395 --> 00:18:01.397
rewarded more.

00:18:02.711 --> 00:18:02.891
Well,

00:18:02.951 --> 00:18:04.631
and I just heard somebody say to the

00:18:04.671 --> 00:18:04.990
other day,

00:18:05.011 --> 00:18:07.311
there's no incentive for being a great

00:18:07.372 --> 00:18:09.471
physical therapist because you get paid

00:18:09.511 --> 00:18:11.532
the same money as somebody who's not a

00:18:11.573 --> 00:18:12.813
great physical therapist.

00:18:13.353 --> 00:18:14.313
Because, you know,

00:18:14.334 --> 00:18:16.034
it doesn't matter how great your outcomes

00:18:16.094 --> 00:18:16.213
are,

00:18:16.253 --> 00:18:17.814
especially if you're discharging patients

00:18:17.854 --> 00:18:19.535
quicker because of the system that we work

00:18:19.595 --> 00:18:19.694
in.

00:18:19.755 --> 00:18:20.335
And, you know,

00:18:20.355 --> 00:18:22.335
I don't work in the outpatient system,

00:18:22.375 --> 00:18:23.875
for example, so I can't speak to that.

00:18:24.496 --> 00:18:27.955
But we really like there really isn't a

00:18:27.996 --> 00:18:30.416
huge pay differential for quality.

00:18:31.020 --> 00:18:31.340
Correct.

00:18:32.082 --> 00:18:33.863
I fired everybody up on LinkedIn a few

00:18:33.883 --> 00:18:35.984
weeks ago when I said the crappy

00:18:36.005 --> 00:18:37.266
therapists and the great therapists.

00:18:37.605 --> 00:18:40.067
You're de-incentivizing people to work

00:18:40.208 --> 00:18:41.469
well or quickly.

00:18:42.409 --> 00:18:44.631
I have a friend who calls that

00:18:44.671 --> 00:18:45.731
discretionary effort.

00:18:46.905 --> 00:18:49.267
That's a very good, there's a,

00:18:49.307 --> 00:18:50.387
there's a HR, right?

00:18:50.428 --> 00:18:52.568
So discretionary effort.

00:18:52.588 --> 00:18:52.949
She's like,

00:18:53.108 --> 00:18:55.789
I want people's discretionary effort,

00:18:56.170 --> 00:18:58.371
but if you never incentivize that, like,

00:18:58.490 --> 00:19:00.912
and again, an example from our generation,

00:19:00.951 --> 00:19:01.133
like,

00:19:01.192 --> 00:19:02.853
do you remember when you would read a

00:19:02.893 --> 00:19:04.574
book and you would get a little pizza,

00:19:04.614 --> 00:19:05.914
Jimmy, the personal PM pizza?

00:19:06.194 --> 00:19:07.375
That's why you haven't read books in eight

00:19:07.414 --> 00:19:07.615
months.

00:19:07.875 --> 00:19:09.556
You haven't gotten your personal PM pizza

00:19:09.615 --> 00:19:11.497
for like your discretionary effort of

00:19:11.557 --> 00:19:12.738
reading books outside of school.

00:19:13.345 --> 00:19:15.046
Larry Benz taught me this thing called

00:19:15.165 --> 00:19:16.105
good hearts law.

00:19:16.205 --> 00:19:17.185
Did you see the video I made on

00:19:17.226 --> 00:19:17.425
that?

00:19:17.605 --> 00:19:19.287
It's like one of those like concepts that

00:19:19.307 --> 00:19:20.666
you're like, Oh, like you,

00:19:20.686 --> 00:19:22.008
you're not shocked by it,

00:19:22.647 --> 00:19:23.728
but like once you see it, you're like,

00:19:23.768 --> 00:19:25.509
so good hearts law is described in this

00:19:26.148 --> 00:19:27.910
little story from, from Russia.

00:19:28.630 --> 00:19:29.069
So that's an,

00:19:29.089 --> 00:19:30.770
it's a factory that made nails.

00:19:31.750 --> 00:19:32.911
And when the, they were like,

00:19:32.951 --> 00:19:34.692
we need to somehow incentivize these

00:19:35.092 --> 00:19:36.913
factory workers to make more nails.

00:19:37.133 --> 00:19:38.053
Cause the more nails we make,

00:19:38.093 --> 00:19:38.873
the more nails we sell,

00:19:38.932 --> 00:19:39.573
the more money we make,

00:19:39.813 --> 00:19:40.453
the more money we make,

00:19:40.473 --> 00:19:41.134
the more we can pay them.

00:19:42.897 --> 00:19:44.378
So Goodhart's Law comes and they go, okay,

00:19:44.398 --> 00:19:45.479
hey, everybody, it's Monday.

00:19:45.919 --> 00:19:46.378
New rule.

00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:49.359
You get paid more the more nails you

00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:49.599
make.

00:19:50.181 --> 00:19:51.701
So they say, great.

00:19:51.861 --> 00:19:52.560
So the end of the day,

00:19:52.621 --> 00:19:53.981
the manager comes in and goes,

00:19:54.342 --> 00:19:54.781
what did we make?

00:19:54.842 --> 00:19:55.201
And they said,

00:19:55.561 --> 00:19:57.363
we made three times as many nails today.

00:19:57.742 --> 00:19:58.222
That's great.

00:19:59.463 --> 00:20:01.663
But the nails were small, tiny,

00:20:02.865 --> 00:20:03.545
and useless.

00:20:04.164 --> 00:20:06.046
You made three times as many useless

00:20:06.086 --> 00:20:06.405
nails.

00:20:07.066 --> 00:20:07.747
They couldn't sell them.

00:20:08.146 --> 00:20:08.707
So like, okay,

00:20:08.787 --> 00:20:09.926
we incentivize the wrong thing.

00:20:09.967 --> 00:20:11.768
We incentivize for quantity.

00:20:13.060 --> 00:20:13.864
Let's go on.

00:20:13.884 --> 00:20:16.089
And they picked another arbitrary KPI.

00:20:16.250 --> 00:20:18.738
And they said, let's target weight,

00:20:19.019 --> 00:20:20.241
the weight of all the nails.

00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:23.500
Okay, manager goes away, comes back,

00:20:23.780 --> 00:20:25.122
end of the day, what do we get?

00:20:25.521 --> 00:20:27.663
A little less nails, but heavier.

00:20:28.343 --> 00:20:28.663
Okay.

00:20:29.324 --> 00:20:33.806
And they made five gigantic nails,

00:20:34.967 --> 00:20:36.627
also useless.

00:20:37.288 --> 00:20:37.867
So, so far,

00:20:38.028 --> 00:20:39.689
we're two days in and we've produced

00:20:39.749 --> 00:20:42.049
nothing because you're incentivizing the

00:20:42.069 --> 00:20:42.529
wrong thing.

00:20:42.609 --> 00:20:44.530
And the idea with Goodhart's Law is when

00:20:44.570 --> 00:20:47.012
the metric that you're measuring becomes

00:20:47.053 --> 00:20:49.713
the target, you're no longer...

00:20:51.198 --> 00:20:52.999
Making what matters.

00:20:53.019 --> 00:20:53.839
Yeah.

00:20:53.940 --> 00:20:55.780
And that needs to be understood.

00:20:57.080 --> 00:21:01.544
A ridiculous KPI is a ridiculous...

00:21:01.683 --> 00:21:02.644
When you gamify it,

00:21:02.684 --> 00:21:04.806
people will gamify for that.

00:21:07.594 --> 00:21:07.733
Yeah.

00:21:07.973 --> 00:21:08.233
I mean,

00:21:08.433 --> 00:21:10.255
Antonio is saying he's gotten people in

00:21:10.295 --> 00:21:11.355
trouble for making people better,

00:21:11.394 --> 00:21:13.855
faster in outpatient offices because they

00:21:13.895 --> 00:21:16.237
wanted the KPIs to be twelve weeks.

00:21:16.537 --> 00:21:18.497
When the metric becomes,

00:21:18.676 --> 00:21:20.317
when the measure becomes a target,

00:21:20.417 --> 00:21:23.499
it fails to measure what matters.

00:21:24.866 --> 00:21:27.189
I threw this suggestion out sort of

00:21:27.249 --> 00:21:28.150
facetiously.

00:21:28.269 --> 00:21:31.211
I like using facetious examples and then

00:21:31.271 --> 00:21:32.073
reeling it back in.

00:21:32.593 --> 00:21:34.213
There's a company, global brand,

00:21:34.615 --> 00:21:35.515
one of the best in the world,

00:21:35.855 --> 00:21:39.218
and they optimize for smiles per hour.

00:21:39.919 --> 00:21:41.200
Smiles, not miles.

00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:42.279
It's Disney.

00:21:43.305 --> 00:21:44.944
They incentivize all their people from the

00:21:45.005 --> 00:21:46.445
person with the broom to the person

00:21:46.506 --> 00:21:48.445
wearing the Mickey Mouse head to the

00:21:48.486 --> 00:21:49.767
person operating the ride.

00:21:50.767 --> 00:21:52.527
Your goal is smiles per hour.

00:21:52.606 --> 00:21:55.127
How do you over-serve every one of these

00:21:55.147 --> 00:21:55.307
people?

00:21:55.448 --> 00:21:56.827
They already paid for the ticket, bro.

00:21:57.848 --> 00:21:58.409
We got them.

00:21:59.808 --> 00:22:00.929
How do we get them to come back?

00:22:01.209 --> 00:22:02.230
How do we get them to tell ten

00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:02.789
other people?

00:22:03.089 --> 00:22:04.509
How do we get them to feel that

00:22:04.549 --> 00:22:04.869
thing?

00:22:05.691 --> 00:22:07.411
And that's simple but not easy because

00:22:07.471 --> 00:22:10.471
Disney is not in a third-party payer

00:22:10.531 --> 00:22:11.031
environment.

00:22:11.051 --> 00:22:11.471
Right.

00:22:12.542 --> 00:22:13.984
So I'm not also saying, oh,

00:22:14.005 --> 00:22:15.586
just optimize for smiles and you get paid

00:22:15.645 --> 00:22:15.846
more.

00:22:15.946 --> 00:22:18.749
I'm not an idiot.

00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:20.411
Most of the time, I'm not an idiot.

00:22:21.112 --> 00:22:21.672
All right.

00:22:21.731 --> 00:22:23.954
So how would we summarize that suggestion

00:22:23.994 --> 00:22:24.394
for you?

00:22:24.615 --> 00:22:24.996
What would be...

00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:29.141
You got to understand what you're

00:22:29.181 --> 00:22:29.801
negotiating.

00:22:29.961 --> 00:22:33.586
You need to align on scope before you

00:22:33.926 --> 00:22:35.428
make any attempt to negotiate.

00:22:35.509 --> 00:22:36.650
There it is.

00:22:36.670 --> 00:22:37.451
Yeah.

00:22:37.471 --> 00:22:39.073
You'll also figure out if you're the wrong

00:22:39.113 --> 00:22:39.512
person.

00:22:39.732 --> 00:22:40.153
Correct.

00:22:40.193 --> 00:22:41.655
Get to the know as quick as possible.

00:22:41.796 --> 00:22:42.016
Yes.

00:22:42.115 --> 00:22:42.557
I love that.

00:22:42.616 --> 00:22:44.298
I think that that's a really good.

00:22:44.318 --> 00:22:46.401
You could pay twice as much to do

00:22:46.441 --> 00:22:47.962
the wrong job and I will hate it.

00:22:49.025 --> 00:22:50.265
And you're going to hate the result and

00:22:50.285 --> 00:22:51.165
I'm going to hate doing it.

00:22:51.846 --> 00:22:52.405
And that's not good.

00:22:52.605 --> 00:22:55.047
So align on scope first.

00:22:55.227 --> 00:22:55.366
Hey,

00:22:55.386 --> 00:22:57.288
how much does it cost to rehab my

00:22:57.307 --> 00:22:57.567
knee?

00:22:58.087 --> 00:22:59.269
I've never seen your knee.

00:22:59.648 --> 00:23:00.709
I can't give you a price.

00:23:01.169 --> 00:23:02.150
How much does it cost to do this

00:23:02.230 --> 00:23:03.490
giant marketing project, Jimmy?

00:23:04.029 --> 00:23:05.590
I don't know what they're solving for yet.

00:23:06.010 --> 00:23:06.730
I have no idea.

00:23:07.070 --> 00:23:09.271
We need scope first, then price.

00:23:09.612 --> 00:23:11.272
But the first question we usually ask

00:23:11.853 --> 00:23:12.913
ourselves or other people is,

00:23:12.992 --> 00:23:13.713
what's this going to cost?

00:23:13.773 --> 00:23:14.493
What am I going to make out of

00:23:14.513 --> 00:23:14.614
this?

00:23:14.634 --> 00:23:15.594
I don't know what I'm doing yet.

00:23:16.193 --> 00:23:16.394
All right.

00:23:16.434 --> 00:23:17.315
My second idea...

00:23:18.268 --> 00:23:21.330
is i think people start negotiating too

00:23:21.391 --> 00:23:26.075
late i think the minute you start

00:23:26.694 --> 00:23:31.199
conversing i would even say before you

00:23:31.259 --> 00:23:32.859
even get to the conversation about let's

00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.061
work together this sort of isn't aligned

00:23:35.102 --> 00:23:37.784
with what i talk about the circle with

00:23:37.824 --> 00:23:40.547
three levels no like trust

00:23:41.670 --> 00:23:42.430
When someone knows,

00:23:42.470 --> 00:23:43.990
whatever someone knows about you,

00:23:44.171 --> 00:23:45.612
and this goes along the lines of like,

00:23:46.011 --> 00:23:47.532
you know, no press is bad press.

00:23:47.913 --> 00:23:48.453
I disagree.

00:23:50.454 --> 00:23:52.115
Just because someone, oh,

00:23:53.236 --> 00:23:54.217
it's not who you know,

00:23:55.517 --> 00:23:56.178
it's not what you know,

00:23:56.198 --> 00:23:56.718
it's who you know.

00:23:58.159 --> 00:23:58.878
One level deeper,

00:23:58.959 --> 00:24:00.519
it's what those people know about you.

00:24:00.579 --> 00:24:01.800
Let's say a lot of people know about

00:24:01.820 --> 00:24:02.820
you and they think you're a jerk.

00:24:02.901 --> 00:24:03.622
That ain't good either.

00:24:04.366 --> 00:24:05.067
Right.

00:24:05.086 --> 00:24:06.428
You're negotiating because they're

00:24:06.448 --> 00:24:07.588
negotiating in their mind,

00:24:07.628 --> 00:24:08.449
who is this person?

00:24:08.469 --> 00:24:09.970
So they've got problem and they're trying

00:24:09.990 --> 00:24:10.789
to come up with a solution.

00:24:11.211 --> 00:24:12.770
If you're in the mix, that's good.

00:24:13.932 --> 00:24:15.132
They're already negotiating in their

00:24:15.172 --> 00:24:15.573
brain.

00:24:16.113 --> 00:24:17.192
Is he too expensive?

00:24:18.334 --> 00:24:19.134
Is he good enough?

00:24:19.434 --> 00:24:21.536
They're negotiating in their brain.

00:24:22.096 --> 00:24:24.017
So when someone calls you to work for

00:24:24.037 --> 00:24:27.919
you or to maybe want you to execute

00:24:27.939 --> 00:24:28.499
on a project,

00:24:28.919 --> 00:24:32.141
they've already begun negotiating.

00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:35.422
I think the biggest mistake is when we

00:24:35.461 --> 00:24:36.481
start selling.

00:24:37.782 --> 00:24:39.284
And Antonio is pointing that out live.

00:24:40.085 --> 00:24:40.945
To Sell is Human.

00:24:41.286 --> 00:24:42.126
That's Daniel Pink.

00:24:42.467 --> 00:24:43.446
It's a great book.

00:24:44.387 --> 00:24:46.809
I think the smartest and best salespeople

00:24:47.450 --> 00:24:48.911
do the least amount of what we would

00:24:49.011 --> 00:24:52.814
think is actually selling.

00:24:52.834 --> 00:24:53.795
Your job is to...

00:24:54.335 --> 00:24:55.836
I try to get other people talking as

00:24:55.895 --> 00:24:56.557
much as possible.

00:24:56.797 --> 00:24:57.718
That's not a trick.

00:24:59.021 --> 00:25:00.643
The goal is to get as much information.

00:25:00.702 --> 00:25:01.864
What are we solving for?

00:25:02.064 --> 00:25:03.424
Is this a five hundred dollar problem,

00:25:03.484 --> 00:25:05.066
a five thousand dollar problem or a fifty

00:25:05.105 --> 00:25:06.026
thousand dollar problem?

00:25:06.926 --> 00:25:07.366
Got it.

00:25:07.787 --> 00:25:09.769
What have you tried so far that has

00:25:09.868 --> 00:25:11.470
sort of worked and not worked?

00:25:12.730 --> 00:25:14.371
Where do you think the solution lies?

00:25:14.711 --> 00:25:16.932
Like if if a lot of those things

00:25:17.032 --> 00:25:19.074
sound like a patient, right?

00:25:19.094 --> 00:25:19.914
I was just going to say,

00:25:19.974 --> 00:25:21.855
if this sounds a lot like a patient

00:25:21.875 --> 00:25:23.237
interaction, like an evaluation,

00:25:23.457 --> 00:25:26.077
I I see a gigantic parallel.

00:25:26.638 --> 00:25:28.420
I did a book like Daniel Pink.

00:25:29.525 --> 00:25:31.445
or Never Split the Difference are books

00:25:31.465 --> 00:25:32.826
about business or negotiating.

00:25:33.327 --> 00:25:34.888
They're about communication and it

00:25:34.969 --> 00:25:35.890
directly,

00:25:35.930 --> 00:25:37.871
it's not one degree from Kevin Bacon.

00:25:38.352 --> 00:25:39.332
It is zero degree.

00:25:39.352 --> 00:25:41.314
They are aligned perfectly.

00:25:41.693 --> 00:25:43.234
So I think you're negotiating too late.

00:25:43.335 --> 00:25:45.297
I think you think the negotiation starts

00:25:45.336 --> 00:25:46.798
when someone says, all right, well,

00:25:46.837 --> 00:25:47.397
how much?

00:25:48.179 --> 00:25:49.880
The negotiation is we are already

00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:50.400
negotiating.

00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:52.821
When someone says that's too much,

00:25:53.903 --> 00:25:54.923
if they don't say no,

00:25:55.384 --> 00:25:57.746
you're still negotiating.

00:25:58.615 --> 00:26:00.135
Help me understand why that's too much.

00:26:00.336 --> 00:26:01.276
What do you think you're going to get

00:26:01.316 --> 00:26:01.717
out of this?

00:26:01.957 --> 00:26:03.938
And then like a lot of these questions

00:26:04.857 --> 00:26:06.598
in clinical situations, in my opinion,

00:26:06.679 --> 00:26:07.798
or business negotiations,

00:26:09.500 --> 00:26:10.441
we need to shut up more.

00:26:12.561 --> 00:26:14.082
You're not going to really talk me into

00:26:14.142 --> 00:26:14.782
a solution.

00:26:14.823 --> 00:26:15.442
And if you do,

00:26:15.482 --> 00:26:16.784
I'm probably not going to feel good about

00:26:16.824 --> 00:26:16.884
it.

00:26:17.263 --> 00:26:19.204
I want to talk myself into the solution.

00:26:20.871 --> 00:26:23.031
So the goal is to just keep asking

00:26:23.071 --> 00:26:25.673
questions about what is the future state

00:26:25.693 --> 00:26:26.854
of this being solved about.

00:26:27.314 --> 00:26:28.714
That is part of negotiation.

00:26:29.154 --> 00:26:30.536
This is in reputation.

00:26:30.816 --> 00:26:31.757
This is in content.

00:26:32.037 --> 00:26:33.156
This is in positioning.

00:26:33.416 --> 00:26:34.637
This is in relationships.

00:26:35.218 --> 00:26:36.778
If you're negotiating at the moment of the

00:26:37.019 --> 00:26:39.340
ask, you've already lost.

00:26:39.941 --> 00:26:42.521
That's why I think it feels icky.

00:26:42.561 --> 00:26:43.482
So that's my suggestion.

00:26:43.702 --> 00:26:44.863
You're negotiating too late.

00:26:44.903 --> 00:26:45.523
That's my number two.

00:26:45.564 --> 00:26:47.785
I like that.

00:26:47.825 --> 00:26:48.224
All right.

00:26:48.265 --> 00:26:49.705
What's your number three idea?

00:26:50.851 --> 00:26:52.790
My number three is that it's okay to

00:26:52.830 --> 00:26:56.531
say no and walk away from a negotiation.

00:26:56.632 --> 00:26:58.471
And I feel like that's where I'm really

00:26:58.531 --> 00:26:59.172
bad, right?

00:26:59.192 --> 00:27:02.173
Like I'm still like in this like flattered

00:27:02.192 --> 00:27:03.913
to be asked category.

00:27:04.413 --> 00:27:07.294
I'm in this never say yes to everything

00:27:07.334 --> 00:27:08.894
in every one category.

00:27:09.054 --> 00:27:11.875
I'm in this like people pleaser category

00:27:11.894 --> 00:27:13.214
where I want to make this work for

00:27:13.255 --> 00:27:13.555
you.

00:27:13.974 --> 00:27:15.115
I guess I could do it.

00:27:15.454 --> 00:27:15.674
Well,

00:27:15.714 --> 00:27:17.796
maybe there's non-financial value that

00:27:17.816 --> 00:27:18.796
I'll get out of this.

00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:23.221
But then when I would talk about physical

00:27:23.241 --> 00:27:24.363
therapists in the emergency department,

00:27:24.423 --> 00:27:26.023
I really talk about leveraging the right

00:27:26.064 --> 00:27:29.547
provider at the right time and seeing the

00:27:29.586 --> 00:27:31.268
worth of the value that we're providing.

00:27:31.307 --> 00:27:32.829
But then when I'm looking at these

00:27:32.890 --> 00:27:34.671
contracts that I'm negotiating,

00:27:36.553 --> 00:27:37.634
is it worth my time?

00:27:37.794 --> 00:27:39.715
I need to understand what my time is

00:27:39.776 --> 00:27:40.115
worth.

00:27:40.936 --> 00:27:41.696
It's not just time, too.

00:27:41.737 --> 00:27:42.377
It's annoyance.

00:27:42.557 --> 00:27:43.459
You have to do the work.

00:27:43.578 --> 00:27:45.440
If you don't like that work or you

00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:46.621
feel like you're undervalued,

00:27:46.922 --> 00:27:48.502
you're going to hate doing that work.

00:27:49.096 --> 00:27:52.738
And I think this fear of walking away

00:27:52.897 --> 00:27:54.638
also feels like scarcity, right?

00:27:54.679 --> 00:27:56.559
Like if I walk away from this opportunity,

00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:57.861
maybe there won't be anymore.

00:27:58.201 --> 00:28:00.001
This is the only opportunity I have.

00:28:00.082 --> 00:28:01.423
I shouldn't let it pass me by.

00:28:01.843 --> 00:28:03.544
And I think it's right opportunities,

00:28:03.624 --> 00:28:03.804
right?

00:28:03.844 --> 00:28:05.184
We need to be looking for the right

00:28:05.305 --> 00:28:08.727
opportunities for us and the person we're

00:28:08.767 --> 00:28:09.787
negotiating with,

00:28:10.627 --> 00:28:12.048
like really looking at the fit.

00:28:12.348 --> 00:28:14.490
It's like you don't marry everyone, right?

00:28:14.890 --> 00:28:16.570
You don't even date everyone that you

00:28:16.651 --> 00:28:18.112
potentially asked you.

00:28:18.592 --> 00:28:19.853
So I'm not sure why,

00:28:20.653 --> 00:28:22.513
like when I look at negotiations that I

00:28:22.575 --> 00:28:23.674
am looking at it that way.

00:28:23.815 --> 00:28:25.036
Oh, I can't believe he asked me.

00:28:25.096 --> 00:28:26.457
I should definitely go out with him,

00:28:26.896 --> 00:28:28.718
even though I'm not interested in him in

00:28:28.857 --> 00:28:29.298
any way.

00:28:29.417 --> 00:28:30.558
I don't want to do the thing that

00:28:30.578 --> 00:28:31.460
he's asking me to do.

00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:33.020
And it's not going to make me feel

00:28:33.040 --> 00:28:33.921
good while I do it.

00:28:34.320 --> 00:28:36.182
And it'll keep me from doing these other

00:28:36.221 --> 00:28:36.823
dates, maybe.

00:28:36.903 --> 00:28:37.123
Right.

00:28:37.222 --> 00:28:38.663
So to use that as an example.

00:28:39.503 --> 00:28:41.444
So it's OK to say no and it's

00:28:41.506 --> 00:28:41.665
OK.

00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:45.442
to know that the right opportunities are

00:28:45.501 --> 00:28:45.862
out there.

00:28:46.522 --> 00:28:47.442
You just said it, though.

00:28:47.663 --> 00:28:48.284
Scarcity.

00:28:49.164 --> 00:28:50.286
No one else is asking.

00:28:50.865 --> 00:28:52.126
This could go for a date or a

00:28:52.186 --> 00:28:52.567
job.

00:28:53.528 --> 00:28:55.048
Larry Benz just said something the other

00:28:55.108 --> 00:28:55.390
day.

00:28:59.313 --> 00:29:00.133
Failing to prepare,

00:29:00.373 --> 00:29:01.894
like in a healthcare environment,

00:29:01.934 --> 00:29:05.537
needing to hire twenty people leaves a big

00:29:05.596 --> 00:29:05.917
need.

00:29:06.917 --> 00:29:07.278
And he goes,

00:29:07.419 --> 00:29:09.220
that leads people to make a lot of

00:29:09.820 --> 00:29:11.261
expensive decisions quickly.

00:29:12.662 --> 00:29:13.742
Not a good position to be in.

00:29:13.803 --> 00:29:14.183
So yeah,

00:29:14.223 --> 00:29:15.345
if it's a week before the prom and

00:29:15.365 --> 00:29:16.425
you're like, I need a date,

00:29:17.646 --> 00:29:18.688
you probably should have started working

00:29:18.708 --> 00:29:19.348
on that earlier.

00:29:19.608 --> 00:29:20.769
But you said scarcity,

00:29:20.890 --> 00:29:23.712
no one else is asking, and self-worth.

00:29:24.713 --> 00:29:26.035
Well, why is no one else asking?

00:29:26.715 --> 00:29:27.936
Imagine you don't have a job and the

00:29:27.957 --> 00:29:29.358
first job that comes along,

00:29:29.398 --> 00:29:30.660
are you not going to say yes?

00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:32.201
All of your friends are going to go,

00:29:32.320 --> 00:29:32.801
dude,

00:29:34.123 --> 00:29:36.305
you said no to the only person asking

00:29:36.345 --> 00:29:36.685
right now?

00:29:38.685 --> 00:29:40.146
And this is a personalized decision.

00:29:40.186 --> 00:29:42.127
I'm not saying you should say no or

00:29:42.167 --> 00:29:43.048
you should say yes.

00:29:43.067 --> 00:29:44.888
These are sort of paradigms to run all

00:29:44.909 --> 00:29:45.729
these ideas through.

00:29:46.849 --> 00:29:48.871
But the question is, what are you saying?

00:29:48.891 --> 00:29:50.131
This goes back to your previous one.

00:29:50.310 --> 00:29:51.692
What are you saying yes to?

00:29:52.471 --> 00:29:53.853
And what does that look like and feel

00:29:53.893 --> 00:29:55.834
like to you the day you say yes,

00:29:56.013 --> 00:29:57.354
a week later, a month later,

00:29:57.433 --> 00:29:58.035
a quarter later?

00:29:58.826 --> 00:30:00.948
And what will that maybe keep you from

00:30:00.988 --> 00:30:02.308
being able to do, right?

00:30:02.348 --> 00:30:03.971
Like if I run for my kid's school

00:30:03.990 --> 00:30:06.232
board and I get that opportunity,

00:30:07.233 --> 00:30:07.835
that's great.

00:30:07.875 --> 00:30:09.736
But that will then preclude me from doing

00:30:10.037 --> 00:30:11.698
all kinds of other things that I could

00:30:11.738 --> 00:30:12.138
be doing.

00:30:12.179 --> 00:30:13.380
And am I the right person for that?

00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:15.442
So I think like looking at negotiations,

00:30:15.481 --> 00:30:16.883
looking at opportunities and making sure

00:30:16.903 --> 00:30:17.403
they fit

00:30:18.084 --> 00:30:18.483
you.

00:30:19.224 --> 00:30:20.365
And I think that goes back to what

00:30:20.385 --> 00:30:21.887
you were saying about the negotiation

00:30:21.907 --> 00:30:23.568
needs to start much earlier.

00:30:23.608 --> 00:30:24.849
It needs to start in your brain first.

00:30:24.890 --> 00:30:26.491
Am I even interested in having this

00:30:26.551 --> 00:30:27.352
negotiation?

00:30:27.712 --> 00:30:28.113
Yep.

00:30:28.133 --> 00:30:29.994
Or is this just a no from me?

00:30:30.816 --> 00:30:32.676
I was flirting with the idea of working

00:30:32.696 --> 00:30:34.778
with an organization on a volunteer basis

00:30:35.159 --> 00:30:37.340
to create something I thought should exist

00:30:37.582 --> 00:30:38.241
for the greater good.

00:30:38.362 --> 00:30:39.323
I was going to make no money on

00:30:39.343 --> 00:30:40.003
this, but I was like,

00:30:40.243 --> 00:30:41.164
I like doing these things.

00:30:42.272 --> 00:30:43.353
Once I started talking to the

00:30:43.393 --> 00:30:44.034
organization,

00:30:44.114 --> 00:30:46.034
they agreed that we should create this,

00:30:46.555 --> 00:30:47.835
that I would be part of it.

00:30:47.914 --> 00:30:48.875
Like, yeah, you'd be a good part.

00:30:48.895 --> 00:30:49.115
I'm like,

00:30:49.155 --> 00:30:49.915
I don't want to be the only part.

00:30:49.935 --> 00:30:50.736
I want to have other people.

00:30:51.757 --> 00:30:52.297
And they were like,

00:30:53.317 --> 00:30:55.337
let's work on it with a goal of

00:30:55.417 --> 00:30:56.558
coming out in two years.

00:30:57.219 --> 00:30:57.558
I was out.

00:30:59.036 --> 00:31:01.896
I can't work that slow.

00:31:02.417 --> 00:31:04.058
This should take two months,

00:31:04.098 --> 00:31:04.679
not two years.

00:31:05.058 --> 00:31:06.519
But on their end,

00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:08.721
they have other priorities.

00:31:09.201 --> 00:31:09.340
Yeah.

00:31:09.381 --> 00:31:10.261
So at that point,

00:31:10.301 --> 00:31:11.221
I know to be like, hey, listen,

00:31:11.402 --> 00:31:12.702
I respect everything you just said.

00:31:13.262 --> 00:31:14.584
But for my own sanity,

00:31:15.163 --> 00:31:17.345
I understand the scope and the time.

00:31:18.086 --> 00:31:20.006
I don't know why it takes two years,

00:31:20.067 --> 00:31:21.846
but we're going to move so slow that

00:31:21.866 --> 00:31:23.008
I'm going to hate the process.

00:31:23.428 --> 00:31:24.269
And then I need to sound like a

00:31:24.308 --> 00:31:24.608
shark.

00:31:24.888 --> 00:31:25.769
But for that reason, I'm out.

00:31:25.788 --> 00:31:25.888
Yeah.

00:31:27.232 --> 00:31:28.053
I just wanted to be clear.

00:31:28.313 --> 00:31:28.753
I'm like,

00:31:28.834 --> 00:31:30.233
I do not dislike where you're going.

00:31:30.413 --> 00:31:32.295
I like everything about it, yada, yada.

00:31:32.714 --> 00:31:34.375
But how you're going to go about it,

00:31:34.575 --> 00:31:35.395
I won't like that.

00:31:35.596 --> 00:31:37.635
So I understood the scope there,

00:31:38.196 --> 00:31:40.336
understood that I would hate this more

00:31:40.356 --> 00:31:41.518
than like it.

00:31:41.698 --> 00:31:42.817
And I was giving my time.

00:31:42.857 --> 00:31:45.659
So I better feel net positive about it.

00:31:47.267 --> 00:31:49.228
But this also goes back to understanding

00:31:49.268 --> 00:31:52.068
the scope and being able to say no

00:31:52.128 --> 00:31:53.028
for a right reason.

00:31:53.048 --> 00:31:55.150
Because every yes to something you don't

00:31:55.190 --> 00:31:56.490
want to do is a potential no for

00:31:56.529 --> 00:31:57.750
something you'd be better off doing.

00:31:57.770 --> 00:32:01.092
Yeah.

00:32:01.132 --> 00:32:01.311
All right.

00:32:01.372 --> 00:32:02.791
My third suggestion is,

00:32:04.593 --> 00:32:06.314
I teased it a second ago when I

00:32:06.354 --> 00:32:07.173
brought up Chris Voss.

00:32:07.903 --> 00:32:09.724
negotiation and communication of the same

00:32:09.744 --> 00:32:11.787
skill.

00:32:12.527 --> 00:32:13.548
You didn't like him at all.

00:32:13.827 --> 00:32:14.729
I didn't like it.

00:32:14.749 --> 00:32:15.788
But I think I need to give it

00:32:15.829 --> 00:32:17.490
another shot now that because I'm in a

00:32:17.530 --> 00:32:19.311
completely different life space now too.

00:32:19.432 --> 00:32:20.692
I think it might be more valuable now.

00:32:21.211 --> 00:32:23.113
So for people who haven't heard,

00:32:23.432 --> 00:32:24.213
I've talked about him a lot,

00:32:24.433 --> 00:32:26.194
former FBI hostage negotiator,

00:32:27.076 --> 00:32:28.777
but he gets into the psychology of

00:32:29.277 --> 00:32:29.837
conversing.

00:32:30.278 --> 00:32:32.378
And I actually looked it up because I

00:32:32.398 --> 00:32:33.000
took away, I was like,

00:32:33.019 --> 00:32:34.861
can I summarize this book in one sentence?

00:32:35.320 --> 00:32:35.801
I said,

00:32:36.402 --> 00:32:37.722
I thought I stole the line from the

00:32:37.742 --> 00:32:37.982
book,

00:32:38.002 --> 00:32:39.023
which I thought was a safe thing to

00:32:39.044 --> 00:32:39.183
do.

00:32:39.423 --> 00:32:40.964
But I've looked and I have not seen

00:32:40.984 --> 00:32:41.365
the line.

00:32:41.444 --> 00:32:42.306
I think I made it up.

00:32:42.806 --> 00:32:43.467
And the line is,

00:32:43.906 --> 00:32:47.189
every conversation is a negotiation for

00:32:47.269 --> 00:32:47.808
information.

00:32:48.670 --> 00:32:49.510
I thought that was in the book.

00:32:50.792 --> 00:32:51.833
I've looked in AI.

00:32:51.893 --> 00:32:52.614
It's not in the book.

00:32:52.874 --> 00:32:54.634
I made that up.

00:32:54.693 --> 00:32:55.834
But that's how I summarize it.

00:32:57.335 --> 00:32:58.875
Every conversation is a negotiation for

00:32:58.894 --> 00:32:59.255
information.

00:32:59.454 --> 00:33:01.715
Whenever someone says every, always,

00:33:01.816 --> 00:33:03.517
or never, your antenna should go up.

00:33:03.957 --> 00:33:05.896
But I still think this holds true.

00:33:08.278 --> 00:33:10.738
You're either trying to get information

00:33:11.038 --> 00:33:12.338
from someone, big or small,

00:33:13.393 --> 00:33:14.093
How was your weekend?

00:33:14.512 --> 00:33:15.114
How's the weather?

00:33:15.834 --> 00:33:16.334
What's up?

00:33:16.773 --> 00:33:18.615
That's a request for information,

00:33:19.115 --> 00:33:21.615
or at least it is low value or

00:33:21.655 --> 00:33:22.395
high value information.

00:33:22.737 --> 00:33:25.057
Or why are you holding these people

00:33:25.076 --> 00:33:26.597
hostage in a bank, which was his job?

00:33:27.438 --> 00:33:29.439
Every conversation is a negotiation for

00:33:29.638 --> 00:33:29.979
information.

00:33:30.338 --> 00:33:32.359
I want you to know something or do

00:33:32.420 --> 00:33:32.779
something,

00:33:33.181 --> 00:33:36.182
or I want to know something or have

00:33:36.221 --> 00:33:36.622
done something.

00:33:37.511 --> 00:33:39.032
And I think that people,

00:33:39.094 --> 00:33:41.336
now bring it back to negotiation for the

00:33:41.375 --> 00:33:43.057
traditional sense, probably not the,

00:33:43.478 --> 00:33:44.278
I don't want to be in a hostage

00:33:44.317 --> 00:33:45.579
negotiation situation ever.

00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:47.801
I don't want to be taking hostages,

00:33:48.082 --> 00:33:49.643
negotiating hostages, or be a hostage.

00:33:50.223 --> 00:33:51.125
But I think you learn a lot from

00:33:51.164 --> 00:33:53.006
it, from Chris Voss.

00:33:53.046 --> 00:33:54.528
We avoid the hard conversations.

00:33:55.248 --> 00:33:57.490
Chris explains how to lean into them.

00:33:57.830 --> 00:33:58.171
In fact,

00:33:58.211 --> 00:34:00.553
the only way out of a hostage negotiation

00:34:00.653 --> 00:34:02.275
or negotiation is through negotiation.

00:34:03.479 --> 00:34:04.819
The book is called Never Split the

00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:05.240
Difference.

00:34:05.441 --> 00:34:06.121
He was like, listen,

00:34:06.141 --> 00:34:06.721
what am I going to do?

00:34:06.842 --> 00:34:08.262
Say, hey, listen, you got ten hostages.

00:34:08.322 --> 00:34:09.925
Why don't you keep five?

00:34:09.945 --> 00:34:11.266
I'll take five and I'll just let you

00:34:11.306 --> 00:34:11.485
go.

00:34:12.567 --> 00:34:13.027
It's ridiculous.

00:34:13.268 --> 00:34:14.728
So why do we say, hey,

00:34:14.768 --> 00:34:16.190
we're ten thousand dollars apart on this

00:34:16.291 --> 00:34:17.010
annual salary.

00:34:17.132 --> 00:34:19.253
Why don't we split the difference at five?

00:34:20.034 --> 00:34:20.974
What if you're worth ten?

00:34:21.436 --> 00:34:22.476
Why would you take five?

00:34:22.677 --> 00:34:23.797
Because it feels fair.

00:34:24.398 --> 00:34:25.980
He talks about how fair is a myth.

00:34:26.300 --> 00:34:27.201
More comfortable.

00:34:27.221 --> 00:34:27.300
Yeah.

00:34:28.106 --> 00:34:29.527
Yeah, because we don't want it.

00:34:29.568 --> 00:34:30.630
So number one,

00:34:30.789 --> 00:34:33.634
avoiding hard conversations.

00:34:33.713 --> 00:34:33.914
Yeah.

00:34:33.954 --> 00:34:35.036
He also is very tactical.

00:34:35.096 --> 00:34:36.217
He doesn't just say, do this.

00:34:36.237 --> 00:34:37.599
He shows you how.

00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:38.481
Yeah.

00:34:38.641 --> 00:34:40.043
And these are simple, not easy.

00:34:40.063 --> 00:34:41.746
Yeah.

00:34:41.766 --> 00:34:42.927
Hoping versus asking.

00:34:44.500 --> 00:34:44.639
Well,

00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:47.081
I implied that I would need this to

00:34:47.101 --> 00:34:47.460
do this.

00:34:47.601 --> 00:34:49.722
Did you ask?

00:34:49.762 --> 00:34:50.302
Did you ask?

00:34:51.043 --> 00:34:51.623
Did you ask?

00:34:51.762 --> 00:34:53.643
Did you say the words out loud?

00:34:54.284 --> 00:34:55.304
And as Chris Rock would say,

00:34:55.525 --> 00:34:56.485
say it with your chest.

00:34:57.204 --> 00:34:58.246
Say it confidently.

00:34:58.266 --> 00:34:59.505
If you think you're worth it,

00:34:59.686 --> 00:35:00.306
don't shut up about it.

00:35:00.987 --> 00:35:01.927
Don't be a jerk about it,

00:35:02.106 --> 00:35:02.947
but say it.

00:35:02.967 --> 00:35:03.467
Did you ask?

00:35:03.807 --> 00:35:05.509
If you didn't, be pissed at yourself,

00:35:05.528 --> 00:35:06.528
not them.

00:35:07.389 --> 00:35:09.170
And then, you know,

00:35:09.230 --> 00:35:10.331
closed mouths don't get paid.

00:35:11.601 --> 00:35:12.541
Closed mouths don't get fed.

00:35:13.141 --> 00:35:14.342
Closed mouths don't get paid.

00:35:14.722 --> 00:35:17.423
Silent people don't get paid attention to.

00:35:18.844 --> 00:35:20.065
You might be the best anything,

00:35:21.025 --> 00:35:23.527
but if you aren't explaining, showing,

00:35:23.686 --> 00:35:25.307
having a conversation about it,

00:35:26.128 --> 00:35:27.789
don't blame anybody else for not knowing

00:35:27.829 --> 00:35:27.929
it.

00:35:28.409 --> 00:35:28.989
Don't do it.

00:35:29.530 --> 00:35:31.471
When everybody says nobody knows the value

00:35:31.510 --> 00:35:32.992
that physical therapy provides.

00:35:33.811 --> 00:35:35.112
Whose fault is that?

00:35:35.452 --> 00:35:36.092
Whose fault is that?

00:35:36.313 --> 00:35:37.474
Oh, it's the APTA's fault.

00:35:38.431 --> 00:35:38.771
Oh, well,

00:35:38.811 --> 00:35:40.371
physicians should know what we do.

00:35:40.472 --> 00:35:42.052
Why don't patients know what we do?

00:35:42.072 --> 00:35:43.213
Yeah.

00:35:43.273 --> 00:35:44.492
No.

00:35:44.532 --> 00:35:44.992
Somebody did.

00:35:45.012 --> 00:35:46.653
We'll get specific because you're the APTA

00:35:46.673 --> 00:35:47.753
Colorado president.

00:35:48.014 --> 00:35:49.474
I am in no way related to any

00:35:49.534 --> 00:35:50.755
APTA organization at all.

00:35:51.655 --> 00:35:52.275
Other than being a member.

00:35:54.675 --> 00:35:55.496
Somebody had said,

00:35:55.635 --> 00:35:56.556
and it was in good faith.

00:35:56.577 --> 00:35:58.336
They were like, I think APTA should.

00:35:58.436 --> 00:35:59.378
And they just did.

00:35:59.538 --> 00:36:01.157
Future PT for future me.

00:36:02.458 --> 00:36:03.719
I'm not going to knock the campaign.

00:36:04.875 --> 00:36:07.315
But I don't think direct to consumer

00:36:07.976 --> 00:36:10.878
conversations is in the APTA's top five

00:36:10.918 --> 00:36:11.338
strengths.

00:36:11.597 --> 00:36:13.358
It's not.

00:36:13.898 --> 00:36:18.181
They are a professional association.

00:36:18.201 --> 00:36:21.242
They are where professionals associate.

00:36:22.503 --> 00:36:24.284
I think the better strength would be

00:36:24.605 --> 00:36:27.045
teaching clinicians how to sing from the

00:36:27.065 --> 00:36:27.666
rooftops,

00:36:28.327 --> 00:36:31.068
not APTA singing from the rooftops.

00:36:31.248 --> 00:36:31.409
Well,

00:36:31.489 --> 00:36:34.391
I will tell you part of that campaign

00:36:34.592 --> 00:36:37.094
includes provider training on how to do

00:36:37.114 --> 00:36:37.293
that.

00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:39.181
That's the win.

00:36:39.302 --> 00:36:40.083
When people say,

00:36:40.202 --> 00:36:41.704
why don't we buy a Super Bowl commercial?

00:36:42.346 --> 00:36:45.009
I, as a guy in marketing, would say,

00:36:45.550 --> 00:36:46.632
do not do that.

00:36:46.831 --> 00:36:47.773
The juice will not...

00:36:47.914 --> 00:36:49.295
I know it'll feel good to you,

00:36:49.856 --> 00:36:51.318
but the juice ain't worth the squeeze.

00:36:51.699 --> 00:36:53.420
I'd rather teach a hundred clinicians...

00:36:54.454 --> 00:36:56.255
or a thousand clinicians with that money

00:36:56.856 --> 00:36:59.217
and get ten x the value just well

00:36:59.336 --> 00:37:01.237
and so you know just to push that

00:37:01.297 --> 00:37:02.838
out there to people the campaign for

00:37:02.878 --> 00:37:04.840
future me it does include media training

00:37:04.900 --> 00:37:06.641
it includes like how to tell your story

00:37:06.782 --> 00:37:08.503
includes how to reach out to your

00:37:08.523 --> 00:37:10.903
community it includes how to like talk to

00:37:10.943 --> 00:37:12.786
patients about the value that you provide

00:37:13.346 --> 00:37:15.067
all of that is part of that which

00:37:15.086 --> 00:37:17.849
is kind of that's that's the answer yeah

00:37:17.949 --> 00:37:19.610
that's the that's the member benefit right

00:37:21.197 --> 00:37:23.318
I also love when people say APTA is

00:37:23.378 --> 00:37:23.699
not good.

00:37:23.759 --> 00:37:24.659
I said, which one?

00:37:25.458 --> 00:37:26.599
Like, what do you mean APTA?

00:37:26.619 --> 00:37:27.699
No, which, which person,

00:37:27.980 --> 00:37:30.780
which person isn't good at their job or

00:37:30.820 --> 00:37:32.820
the, or they're volunteering their time,

00:37:32.860 --> 00:37:34.621
effort, and money, which can you point,

00:37:35.222 --> 00:37:35.902
which the weakest link?

00:37:35.922 --> 00:37:36.983
Well, no, just all of them.

00:37:37.083 --> 00:37:38.043
Oh, all the people are bad.

00:37:38.402 --> 00:37:38.842
All of them.

00:37:39.762 --> 00:37:40.043
Some.

00:37:40.563 --> 00:37:43.123
Okay.

00:37:43.164 --> 00:37:44.824
Are you mad that they're doing it or

00:37:44.844 --> 00:37:46.065
mad that they're not doing it your way?

00:37:47.306 --> 00:37:47.905
And then I like to say,

00:37:47.945 --> 00:37:48.666
are you a member or not?

00:37:51.273 --> 00:37:52.715
That's a negotiation tactic, right?

00:37:53.576 --> 00:37:56.079
I did see someone sent me a screenshot.

00:37:57.539 --> 00:37:59.681
Their membership had lapsed or was about

00:37:59.722 --> 00:38:00.262
to lapse.

00:38:00.782 --> 00:38:02.885
And it was like just not a great

00:38:03.686 --> 00:38:04.367
written email.

00:38:04.806 --> 00:38:05.268
And I was like, ooh,

00:38:05.307 --> 00:38:07.469
missed opportunity for a negotiation.

00:38:08.789 --> 00:38:11.030
Yeah, it was like, hey, I'll find it.

00:38:11.070 --> 00:38:12.032
We could talk about it off air,

00:38:12.052 --> 00:38:14.152
but it was like that was the last

00:38:14.213 --> 00:38:14.893
opportunity.

00:38:15.293 --> 00:38:18.436
That was your Hail Mary to mention a

00:38:18.476 --> 00:38:19.898
movie that is out that I've heard good

00:38:19.918 --> 00:38:20.278
things about.

00:38:20.298 --> 00:38:22.320
That was your Hail Mary to get them

00:38:22.340 --> 00:38:22.701
to stay.

00:38:23.922 --> 00:38:25.222
That conversation should have started

00:38:25.302 --> 00:38:25.943
twelve months ago.

00:38:25.963 --> 00:38:29.005
Yeah, it should have been consistent.

00:38:29.525 --> 00:38:32.228
It should have been their customer member

00:38:32.307 --> 00:38:32.708
centric.

00:38:33.108 --> 00:38:36.472
It was like it felt it didn't feel

00:38:36.532 --> 00:38:37.072
on brand.

00:38:37.152 --> 00:38:37.432
That's OK.

00:38:38.871 --> 00:38:39.951
These are things to learn from.

00:38:40.132 --> 00:38:42.411
But you start to see that negotiation

00:38:42.472 --> 00:38:45.534
feels like a job interview thing or a

00:38:45.594 --> 00:38:46.713
project interview thing.

00:38:46.853 --> 00:38:47.273
It's not.

00:38:48.554 --> 00:38:49.956
You're negotiating ten thousand times.

00:38:50.016 --> 00:38:50.315
All right.

00:38:50.356 --> 00:38:51.695
Maybe ten thousand times is a lot.

00:38:51.715 --> 00:38:53.737
Your negotiation doesn't dozens of times a

00:38:53.777 --> 00:38:53.956
day.

00:38:54.597 --> 00:38:56.858
More food, more time before bed, this,

00:38:56.898 --> 00:38:58.599
that, letting people into traffic.

00:38:59.059 --> 00:39:00.380
It sounds like I'm oversimplifying,

00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:02.019
but I don't think I am.

00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:03.240
But every in my mind,

00:39:03.621 --> 00:39:05.541
every conversation is a negotiation.

00:39:06.277 --> 00:39:06.396
Well,

00:39:06.456 --> 00:39:08.360
I feel like you know some things naturally

00:39:08.380 --> 00:39:09.943
in life that aren't negotiable, right?

00:39:10.184 --> 00:39:12.226
And you've just sort of opted into that.

00:39:12.266 --> 00:39:12.447
Like,

00:39:12.648 --> 00:39:13.769
I know when I go to the grocery

00:39:13.789 --> 00:39:13.969
store,

00:39:13.989 --> 00:39:14.931
I'm not going to fight with them about

00:39:14.952 --> 00:39:15.552
the price of eggs.

00:39:15.592 --> 00:39:16.454
I can have them or I can not

00:39:16.494 --> 00:39:16.775
have them.

00:39:16.815 --> 00:39:17.976
That negotiation is complete.

00:39:18.418 --> 00:39:18.737
Correct.

00:39:19.059 --> 00:39:20.240
So why are we different?

00:39:21.414 --> 00:39:23.454
Because we question our worth.

00:39:24.175 --> 00:39:25.974
A supermarket knows it has traffic and

00:39:25.994 --> 00:39:28.275
knows if I knock a dollar off the

00:39:28.376 --> 00:39:29.956
eggs, I lose money on the eggs.

00:39:30.096 --> 00:39:32.195
And I can't, that is non-negotiable.

00:39:32.956 --> 00:39:34.396
I think a lot of times another mistake

00:39:34.416 --> 00:39:35.677
to add a bonus one would be,

00:39:36.097 --> 00:39:37.617
you need to go in and understand what

00:39:37.637 --> 00:39:38.617
your floor is.

00:39:39.338 --> 00:39:40.617
You will take less than this.

00:39:40.777 --> 00:39:41.778
I cannot, it does not,

00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:42.818
I have said that.

00:39:43.318 --> 00:39:45.199
Oh, I just had this conversation recently.

00:39:45.438 --> 00:39:45.659
I'm like,

00:39:46.139 --> 00:39:47.960
I cannot do it for less than that.

00:39:49.291 --> 00:39:50.472
Because I will be losing money.

00:39:50.592 --> 00:39:52.313
And the day one when we signed on

00:39:52.333 --> 00:39:53.514
this line, I just got money.

00:39:53.614 --> 00:39:55.637
But I'm like, I mathed it out.

00:39:56.117 --> 00:39:57.878
I will lose money doing this.

00:39:58.219 --> 00:39:59.780
So I'm not in the business of losing

00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.282
money because I won't be in business long.

00:40:02.842 --> 00:40:03.804
And I'm not in the business of feeling

00:40:03.824 --> 00:40:04.423
like crap.

00:40:04.623 --> 00:40:06.146
So no, this is my floor.

00:40:06.565 --> 00:40:08.387
I would not go any lower than this.

00:40:08.648 --> 00:40:09.708
And they were pushing and pushing.

00:40:09.989 --> 00:40:11.889
They tried to change the scope on time

00:40:12.990 --> 00:40:13.931
or deliverables.

00:40:13.972 --> 00:40:15.693
And I was like, this is my floor.

00:40:15.952 --> 00:40:17.153
I am at my floor for you.

00:40:18.186 --> 00:40:21.268
And I had to go in saying,

00:40:21.789 --> 00:40:23.590
my job is not to win this negotiation.

00:40:23.972 --> 00:40:25.132
My job is not to give up too

00:40:25.152 --> 00:40:25.974
much.

00:40:26.114 --> 00:40:26.753
Yeah.

00:40:26.853 --> 00:40:27.775
And I knew where the line was.

00:40:27.795 --> 00:40:28.335
And I said, no.

00:40:29.547 --> 00:40:30.588
And I felt great about it.

00:40:30.628 --> 00:40:30.748
Now,

00:40:31.007 --> 00:40:32.528
did I want that person as a client?

00:40:32.628 --> 00:40:32.929
Yes.

00:40:33.268 --> 00:40:35.248
Do I think I could have overperformed for

00:40:35.268 --> 00:40:35.469
them?

00:40:36.190 --> 00:40:36.670
Yes.

00:40:37.230 --> 00:40:38.750
But what I was doing for them was

00:40:38.789 --> 00:40:40.710
going to take twelve to eighteen months.

00:40:40.971 --> 00:40:42.530
And I think they even understood that.

00:40:42.771 --> 00:40:43.190
But they were like,

00:40:43.251 --> 00:40:44.152
we want to pay less.

00:40:44.652 --> 00:40:44.992
And I said,

00:40:45.092 --> 00:40:46.532
you're not taking the same risk as I

00:40:46.592 --> 00:40:46.711
am.

00:40:46.931 --> 00:40:48.253
I'm going to be doing all the work.

00:40:48.693 --> 00:40:49.972
And in eighteen months,

00:40:50.793 --> 00:40:52.634
you're going to be getting the reward.

00:40:53.054 --> 00:40:54.153
And if that blows up,

00:40:54.853 --> 00:40:57.335
I don't really get paid in exposure.

00:40:58.208 --> 00:40:58.768
I've tried.

00:40:58.788 --> 00:41:00.228
I've gone to the bank and said, hey,

00:41:01.188 --> 00:41:02.628
I got a lot of impressions on LinkedIn.

00:41:02.789 --> 00:41:04.769
Can I pay my mortgage this month on

00:41:04.809 --> 00:41:05.349
exposure?

00:41:05.809 --> 00:41:06.610
And they said no.

00:41:07.429 --> 00:41:08.150
Weird.

00:41:08.331 --> 00:41:10.590
Weird.

00:41:10.891 --> 00:41:13.231
Rachel wants to know about free advice at

00:41:13.251 --> 00:41:14.552
the gym, a.k.a.

00:41:14.572 --> 00:41:18.632
a free consult and no follow-up.

00:41:18.693 --> 00:41:20.353
What do you do there?

00:41:20.534 --> 00:41:23.454
I don't know because people ask me for

00:41:23.514 --> 00:41:25.275
free advice all the time, right?

00:41:26.371 --> 00:41:27.831
My answer is whatever you're comfortable

00:41:27.871 --> 00:41:28.132
with.

00:41:28.512 --> 00:41:28.972
Yeah.

00:41:29.213 --> 00:41:31.753
And so I am that person that gives

00:41:31.873 --> 00:41:33.355
people free advice all the time.

00:41:33.954 --> 00:41:35.376
I think you just have to decide what

00:41:35.536 --> 00:41:37.217
that time is worth to you.

00:41:37.978 --> 00:41:41.099
I made some people angry because I don't

00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:43.101
mind giving people advice.

00:41:43.780 --> 00:41:44.342
Yeah.

00:41:44.362 --> 00:41:46.302
Knowing that some people are a company of

00:41:46.443 --> 00:41:46.543
one.

00:41:47.748 --> 00:41:47.987
Right.

00:41:48.228 --> 00:41:49.929
Or that person works for a company.

00:41:49.969 --> 00:41:51.090
So that advice would work.

00:41:51.630 --> 00:41:54.152
So I don't mind when I'm talking to

00:41:54.172 --> 00:41:55.873
a clinician about like content creation or

00:41:55.914 --> 00:41:56.293
marketing.

00:41:56.313 --> 00:41:57.094
Yeah.

00:41:57.114 --> 00:41:58.554
I sort of don't want to take money

00:41:58.574 --> 00:42:00.076
from that person if they're too small.

00:42:00.115 --> 00:42:01.077
There's a line for me.

00:42:01.496 --> 00:42:03.998
I'd rather just give it to you.

00:42:04.018 --> 00:42:05.579
The problem is when companies,

00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:08.061
when like a person who runs like ten

00:42:08.302 --> 00:42:10.182
locations is like, can I pick your brain?

00:42:10.543 --> 00:42:13.144
So to answer Rachel's sort of Rachel's

00:42:13.164 --> 00:42:15.686
question, I developed two doors.

00:42:17.135 --> 00:42:18.836
If you want to pick my brain and

00:42:18.856 --> 00:42:20.277
you want an hour of my time,

00:42:21.197 --> 00:42:22.739
I say, you pay me.

00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:24.059
I actually started doing it.

00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:25.541
And I got wild payment options.

00:42:25.601 --> 00:42:25.960
I'm like, hey,

00:42:25.981 --> 00:42:27.322
what do you charge patients per hour?

00:42:27.342 --> 00:42:28.342
And they're like, two hundred dollars.

00:42:28.382 --> 00:42:30.724
I go, great, two hundred bucks.

00:42:30.784 --> 00:42:32.465
I just used your logic for me.

00:42:32.684 --> 00:42:34.947
And people have said, OK, that's fair.

00:42:35.007 --> 00:42:35.166
Great.

00:42:35.567 --> 00:42:37.347
I am yours for an hour and I

00:42:37.367 --> 00:42:38.768
will record that conversation and

00:42:38.809 --> 00:42:39.949
transcribe it and give it to you.

00:42:40.010 --> 00:42:41.371
That's your information that you paid for.

00:42:41.650 --> 00:42:42.891
And I will happily give it to you.

00:42:43.737 --> 00:42:45.818
The second door that I've been trying,

00:42:45.838 --> 00:42:46.918
and only a couple people have taken me

00:42:46.978 --> 00:42:47.398
up on this,

00:42:47.838 --> 00:42:49.797
is we will record the conversation,

00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:51.199
the hour,

00:42:51.358 --> 00:42:52.619
and then I can use it for content.

00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:53.099
Yeah.

00:42:53.759 --> 00:42:55.719
Because I can show my thought process and

00:42:55.780 --> 00:42:56.300
you win.

00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:59.221
But I'm showing a hundred people now.

00:43:00.181 --> 00:43:02.001
Oh, that's not exactly my problem,

00:43:02.021 --> 00:43:03.961
but I see how he's carving that up.

00:43:03.981 --> 00:43:04.302
Yeah.

00:43:04.581 --> 00:43:05.621
That's kind of cool.

00:43:06.902 --> 00:43:08.983
But as Antonio is also putting in the

00:43:09.023 --> 00:43:09.722
comments too,

00:43:09.802 --> 00:43:11.003
it's certainly a vibe you have to feel

00:43:11.063 --> 00:43:12.204
out for advice.

00:43:12.384 --> 00:43:12.523
Yeah.

00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:14.280
And then they're also...

00:43:14.300 --> 00:43:15.641
I will say this to everybody watching live

00:43:15.661 --> 00:43:16.121
or listening.

00:43:17.322 --> 00:43:18.182
There's a term for this.

00:43:18.262 --> 00:43:18.963
I didn't coin it,

00:43:19.304 --> 00:43:22.365
but it's an ask hole.

00:43:22.425 --> 00:43:24.106
People who just ask and ask and ask

00:43:24.146 --> 00:43:25.027
and ask and ask.

00:43:25.568 --> 00:43:26.728
And then the worst part is if they

00:43:26.849 --> 00:43:27.909
ask and ask and ask and ask and

00:43:28.009 --> 00:43:29.329
ask and you keep giving them the same

00:43:29.369 --> 00:43:31.251
information and they don't do anything

00:43:31.271 --> 00:43:31.532
with it.

00:43:32.052 --> 00:43:33.293
I cannot deal with that.

00:43:33.532 --> 00:43:34.213
After three,

00:43:34.954 --> 00:43:37.135
I was at a wedding once and my

00:43:37.195 --> 00:43:38.195
date was another PT.

00:43:38.556 --> 00:43:39.456
So the woman was there,

00:43:39.476 --> 00:43:40.577
was like the mother of the bride,

00:43:40.657 --> 00:43:41.038
was like...

00:43:42.144 --> 00:43:43.206
I'm in PT and you're a PT.

00:43:43.226 --> 00:43:43.885
I'm like, oh, great.

00:43:43.965 --> 00:43:45.086
I can't wait for the questions.

00:43:45.387 --> 00:43:46.748
A lot of times I tell people now

00:43:47.447 --> 00:43:49.110
that I work retail and they don't ask

00:43:49.130 --> 00:43:49.909
me any follow up questions.

00:43:49.929 --> 00:43:51.391
When you're a PT, you get it.

00:43:51.831 --> 00:43:53.371
So this woman was like my and she

00:43:53.411 --> 00:43:55.313
was older, not to be ageist,

00:43:55.333 --> 00:43:55.673
but she was like,

00:43:55.853 --> 00:43:57.675
my physical therapist was trying to get me

00:43:57.715 --> 00:44:00.036
to do squats at my age.

00:44:00.257 --> 00:44:01.637
She was being ageist against herself.

00:44:02.664 --> 00:44:04.284
And after the third time of her being

00:44:04.304 --> 00:44:04.445
like...

00:44:04.545 --> 00:44:05.646
She was trying to get me to agree

00:44:05.666 --> 00:44:06.005
with her.

00:44:06.246 --> 00:44:07.326
Squats are ridiculous.

00:44:07.826 --> 00:44:09.047
And I was trying to have as many

00:44:09.086 --> 00:44:10.806
vodka sodas as I could because it was

00:44:10.847 --> 00:44:11.347
an open bar.

00:44:12.047 --> 00:44:12.447
And I was like,

00:44:12.527 --> 00:44:14.807
you are harshing my mellow, lady,

00:44:14.847 --> 00:44:15.648
that I don't know.

00:44:16.527 --> 00:44:19.048
So this is how I dealt with her.

00:44:19.088 --> 00:44:21.349
Just brutal, punch in the face honesty.

00:44:21.429 --> 00:44:22.789
I wanted to end the conversation because

00:44:22.809 --> 00:44:23.650
it was like three times.

00:44:23.710 --> 00:44:24.570
And then I'm like, lady,

00:44:25.289 --> 00:44:27.271
I'm doing the Macarena and drinking vodka

00:44:27.331 --> 00:44:27.630
sodas.

00:44:27.710 --> 00:44:29.271
I'm having my best life and you're ruining

00:44:29.311 --> 00:44:29.391
it.

00:44:29.710 --> 00:44:30.210
And I just said,

00:44:30.592 --> 00:44:31.851
do you like pooping alone?

00:44:32.681 --> 00:44:33.682
She was like, what?

00:44:34.222 --> 00:44:34.503
And I was like,

00:44:34.742 --> 00:44:37.105
do you like going to the bathroom by

00:44:37.144 --> 00:44:37.826
yourself?

00:44:37.985 --> 00:44:38.505
And she's like,

00:44:38.525 --> 00:44:39.927
I don't know what kind of question that

00:44:39.987 --> 00:44:40.067
is.

00:44:40.086 --> 00:44:40.327
And I go,

00:44:40.626 --> 00:44:42.588
your PT is understanding if you can't

00:44:42.668 --> 00:44:43.128
squat,

00:44:43.369 --> 00:44:45.891
you can't get on and off the toilet

00:44:46.311 --> 00:44:46.911
alone.

00:44:47.331 --> 00:44:48.693
The PT is dead on track.

00:44:48.893 --> 00:44:49.753
I'm with your PT.

00:44:50.134 --> 00:44:50.954
Conversation over.

00:44:51.335 --> 00:44:54.137
And Rebecca, no more questions.

00:44:54.257 --> 00:44:55.617
No more follow-ups.

00:44:55.677 --> 00:44:57.498
No follow-up from that.

00:44:57.518 --> 00:44:58.699
That was a negotiation.

00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:00.181
Negotiation over.

00:45:00.561 --> 00:45:01.101
Dunzo.

00:45:01.461 --> 00:45:01.862
Finite.

00:45:03.550 --> 00:45:04.110
All right.

00:45:04.150 --> 00:45:05.130
So how do we wrap this up?

00:45:05.231 --> 00:45:06.391
That was six ideas.

00:45:06.650 --> 00:45:07.311
And there's more.

00:45:07.451 --> 00:45:09.152
This isn't a finite guide.

00:45:09.192 --> 00:45:10.731
This isn't universal.

00:45:11.791 --> 00:45:15.974
But I think some of these are actionable.

00:45:16.414 --> 00:45:18.474
And I think Antonio bringing up Daniel

00:45:18.494 --> 00:45:19.914
Pink's to sell as human is a good...

00:45:20.594 --> 00:45:23.376
I know it feels icky selling.

00:45:23.795 --> 00:45:24.275
You're selling.

00:45:24.755 --> 00:45:25.797
If you have a product or a service

00:45:25.836 --> 00:45:28.737
and someone you want to use it is

00:45:28.757 --> 00:45:29.717
deciding, that's selling.

00:45:29.818 --> 00:45:30.297
And you can do it.

00:45:30.557 --> 00:45:32.179
You are either doing it poorly or well,

00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:33.239
but you're doing it.

00:45:34.228 --> 00:45:34.708
You decide.

00:45:35.809 --> 00:45:36.670
I liked our suggestions.

00:45:36.710 --> 00:45:37.250
This was good.

00:45:37.490 --> 00:45:38.550
Did you like this format?

00:45:38.570 --> 00:45:40.612
We take one idea and then you bring

00:45:40.652 --> 00:45:41.913
three and I bring three and then we

00:45:41.932 --> 00:45:42.893
just hash it out.

00:45:42.913 --> 00:45:44.554
I think it's good because at worst,

00:45:44.693 --> 00:45:45.994
I'm learning three things I didn't think

00:45:46.074 --> 00:45:46.215
of.

00:45:46.355 --> 00:45:47.355
And at worst, you're losing.

00:45:47.414 --> 00:45:48.536
You're learning three things maybe.

00:45:48.835 --> 00:45:50.115
And then if people learn for value.

00:45:50.135 --> 00:45:50.456
All right.

00:45:50.737 --> 00:45:51.916
Well, we always do a parting shot.

00:45:51.956 --> 00:45:53.077
What's your parting shot for today?

00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:57.199
My parting shot is that you're not

00:45:57.260 --> 00:45:58.900
negotiating for yourself.

00:45:59.541 --> 00:46:01.001
You're negotiating for impact.

00:46:01.021 --> 00:46:01.902
Ooh.

00:46:02.431 --> 00:46:04.672
and alignment and alignment.

00:46:07.114 --> 00:46:07.914
I think alignment,

00:46:08.355 --> 00:46:09.815
you're negotiating for alignment.

00:46:11.177 --> 00:46:11.956
Yeah,

00:46:12.036 --> 00:46:13.577
I'll just go back to the line that

00:46:13.717 --> 00:46:14.739
I thought I stole,

00:46:14.759 --> 00:46:15.739
but I might've made up,

00:46:15.778 --> 00:46:17.659
which is every conversation is a

00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:19.641
negotiation for information.

00:46:20.041 --> 00:46:21.382
And when you start to look at it

00:46:21.402 --> 00:46:21.862
that way,

00:46:22.900 --> 00:46:24.262
Things get simpler,

00:46:24.483 --> 00:46:26.184
not easier necessarily.

00:46:26.264 --> 00:46:26.724
Simpler.

00:46:27.286 --> 00:46:28.467
And what I mean by simple is you

00:46:28.527 --> 00:46:30.108
understand what your floor is,

00:46:30.148 --> 00:46:31.250
what you can take and what you shouldn't

00:46:31.490 --> 00:46:32.512
in time, effort, money,

00:46:32.572 --> 00:46:33.293
whatever those things are,

00:46:33.853 --> 00:46:36.496
or what the purpose of this interaction

00:46:36.576 --> 00:46:36.755
is.

00:46:37.157 --> 00:46:37.717
And then you get to,

00:46:38.077 --> 00:46:38.759
I think in my mind,

00:46:38.778 --> 00:46:41.021
when you put it in that context that

00:46:41.121 --> 00:46:42.822
every conversation is a negotiation for

00:46:42.842 --> 00:46:43.324
information,

00:46:44.289 --> 00:46:47.851
The questions that you will ask get easier

00:46:47.891 --> 00:46:48.570
to spot.

00:46:48.610 --> 00:46:49.771
What are we solving for?

00:46:49.811 --> 00:46:50.891
What does good look like?

00:46:50.952 --> 00:46:52.172
Help me understand.

00:46:52.273 --> 00:46:54.373
Help me understand three powerful words

00:46:54.873 --> 00:46:56.275
that get the person talking.

00:46:57.155 --> 00:46:58.335
So I would say that's my parting shot.

00:46:58.646 --> 00:46:59.586
All right, we're back next week.

00:46:59.606 --> 00:47:00.809
Do we want to forward tease or are

00:47:00.829 --> 00:47:01.969
we going to figure out what our thing

00:47:02.030 --> 00:47:02.411
is later?

00:47:02.451 --> 00:47:03.733
I don't know what our next topic would

00:47:03.753 --> 00:47:04.313
be for next week.

00:47:04.333 --> 00:47:04.454
Well,

00:47:04.474 --> 00:47:05.875
so the other thing that I wanted to

00:47:05.894 --> 00:47:06.255
talk about,

00:47:06.295 --> 00:47:07.757
so I'm just going to declare that it's

00:47:07.797 --> 00:47:08.579
the next topic,

00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:10.021
is the other thing that people have been

00:47:10.161 --> 00:47:13.284
asking me about a lot lately is I

00:47:13.445 --> 00:47:15.628
don't agree with the policy changes

00:47:15.688 --> 00:47:16.710
happening where I work.

00:47:17.190 --> 00:47:19.452
But I don't want to say anything because

00:47:19.632 --> 00:47:22.193
I feel like then I'm the problem child

00:47:22.393 --> 00:47:24.074
or there's retribution.

00:47:24.635 --> 00:47:28.137
I don't know how to advocate or

00:47:28.237 --> 00:47:30.259
communicate about my concerns with a

00:47:30.298 --> 00:47:32.601
policy change or a leadership decision

00:47:33.041 --> 00:47:34.501
without harming my career.

00:47:35.003 --> 00:47:35.222
Yeah.

00:47:35.762 --> 00:47:36.884
How do you do that well?

00:47:36.943 --> 00:47:37.664
That's a good one.

00:47:37.684 --> 00:47:40.646
Because listen, that's real.

00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:41.920
So real.

00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:44.780
And I think it really contributes to

00:47:44.820 --> 00:47:46.300
burnout too if you feel like you can't

00:47:46.340 --> 00:47:48.322
safely go back and forth with your

00:47:48.382 --> 00:47:49.021
leadership team.

00:47:49.402 --> 00:47:50.961
Hell yeah.

00:47:51.021 --> 00:47:51.202
I mean,

00:47:51.222 --> 00:47:52.182
and a lot of things will come into

00:47:52.222 --> 00:47:54.682
play to forward tease this would be, dude,

00:47:54.762 --> 00:47:56.043
I used to walk around the radio station

00:47:56.063 --> 00:47:58.364
that I ran when I was, you know,

00:47:58.643 --> 00:48:00.005
and I said whatever the hell I wanted

00:48:00.085 --> 00:48:01.545
because I knew I was and I didn't

00:48:01.565 --> 00:48:03.485
have a mortgage or kids.

00:48:03.804 --> 00:48:05.565
I didn't have any of those things.

00:48:06.065 --> 00:48:07.826
So I was a little more gunslingery,

00:48:07.945 --> 00:48:08.907
but now I'm a little older and I

00:48:08.927 --> 00:48:09.766
know people are like, dude,

00:48:10.387 --> 00:48:11.746
I can't afford to those things.

00:48:12.128 --> 00:48:13.628
But how do I do this the right

00:48:13.668 --> 00:48:14.007
way?

00:48:14.648 --> 00:48:15.329
So this is good.

00:48:15.369 --> 00:48:17.108
This might bring in some framing and some

00:48:17.168 --> 00:48:18.068
good questions.

00:48:18.510 --> 00:48:19.230
All right.

00:48:19.250 --> 00:48:20.630
So that'll be our next discussion.

00:48:21.030 --> 00:48:21.710
Be back on Monday.

00:48:21.751 --> 00:48:22.590
Rebecca Griffith.

00:48:22.731 --> 00:48:23.431
I'm Jimmy McKay.

00:48:24.150 --> 00:48:25.351
Thanks for listening.

00:48:25.371 --> 00:48:25.771
Thanks for watching.

00:48:27.170 --> 00:48:28.250
That's it for this one,

00:48:28.510 --> 00:48:30.170
but we're just getting warmed up.

00:48:30.650 --> 00:48:32.572
Smash follow, send it to a friend,

00:48:32.771 --> 00:48:34.431
or crank up the next episode.

00:48:34.952 --> 00:48:35.873
Want to go deeper?

00:48:36.333 --> 00:48:40.353
Hit us at pgpiecast.com or find us on

00:48:40.414 --> 00:48:42.954
YouTube and socials at pgpiecast.

00:48:43.375 --> 00:48:45.655
And legally, none of this was advice.

00:48:45.715 --> 00:48:47.376
It's for entertainment purposes only.

00:48:47.396 --> 00:48:49.097
Bulls**t!

00:48:49.137 --> 00:48:49.717
See, Keith?

00:48:49.936 --> 00:48:50.998
We read the script.

00:48:51.297 --> 00:48:51.918
Happy now?