Wage Literacy, Work-Life Balance, and Winning the Long Game in PT

0:00 I was thinking about making the next year's like theme be a decade under the influence. A nice little nice fact that the podcast under the influence. I like that a lot. Thanks for saying yes. Ten years ago. Yeah, I can't even believe it. It's too easy. Yeah, to a PT student who was like, hi, I have a podcast. I'm not sure if you know what that is because it's weird. It's new. Will you be on it? And then you and a handful of others were like, sure, say less. Yeah, no, I remember that the inaugural six pack. I actually remember that recording very vividly. Um, yeah, like very vividly. And like, I remember I was just starting up doc and like, I didn't have a good straight answer for you, uh, for your question of like, what does a day in the life look like for, for me?

0:44 And I was like, it was weird. Cause it was like startup and like, there was no schedule, you know? It was like, there's days where I was like basically twiddling my thumbs going, Oh, I hope we make money. You know? And like there are other days where I was like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to contain myself today because there's just too much work to do so right feast or famine well it's hard so I mentioned you know when I reached out just for the audience context uh ben was one of the inaugural six pack I did a six pack of episodes to release it wasn't planned to go much further than that like I wasn't thinking like well here's the first six pack let's see where this thing goes like I was sort of doing six and I was gonna like put it out into the world and just sort of like That was it.

1:25 Thanks, everybody. Like, good night. Right. Mission accomplished. Right. And I think we saw a little momentum and I don't think it was necessarily because of what I did or any of the guests said that was magic. I think there was a profession that had so many questions and podcasting hadn't really reached its peak yet. I mean, right now at this point, I feel like more people have a podcast than don't have a podcast. Right. Right. I think it was like, there wasn't a great way to go deeper long. It wasn't really, there was no such thing as long form content is what I'm guessing at. And podcasting was like ripe for it. And then the opposite, instead of having to be sports center, you could be, you could go deep an inch wide and a mile deep on something so random as PT.

2:09 And now we've seen people go even more niche. Like I'm just doing a home health show about PT and So, all right, so there's the context. So I reached back out to you. I was like, listen, I'm coming up on ten years. I want to have people back on the show who were there in the beginning. And I sort of prompted you by saying like, well, let's talk about what's changed or things that's changed and stayed the same. How do you think both you and the profession, this is a big question to start, have evolved in the last ten years? I mean, that's such a good timed question because right now You know, if you followed me like by proxy into, you know, Jimmy's podcast here, you probably knew me from like work from updoc or from like salary or job market stuff.

2:58 And so I'm actually releasing a year ten pulse. Like we're hoping to get it out this year. And actually, that's one of the major questions is on like the macro slash meta is like, what actually happened these last ten years? You know, like what really happened? Where are we now? And, you know, so I say, you know, how has the profession evolved? Um, difficultly apologize for that. That was my alarm that just went off of going, I better check in to make sure Jimmy's like hope safely. Um, but yeah, I think our profession evolved with difficulty. Um, I think that, uh, you know, ten, you know, five years ago, if you can even believe it was twenty twenty.

3:39 So, you know, so that's nuts, you know, maybe four on the on the rolling calendar year. So, you know, for half of it, Between twenty fifteen and before the embarkation of twenty twenty, I think that our profession evolved very, very quickly. It really tried to create professional roots of excellence. I think we really tried to hammer in hyper specialization. If you look back. You know, you looked at a lot of people that had OCSs, SCSs, they were getting residencies, fellowships. They were getting a lot of the what I call the corporate certification. So like MDT, you know, COMT, SFMA, like that was really hot back in the mid-twenty teens into twenty twenty.

4:20 And then all of a sudden, poof, none of that mattered. Right. At all. And and then we got hit with a lot of different call it world happenings. Right. And it's like something that I probably said. I say this on every podcast and it bugs the heck out of my wife. So I'm just going to do it again. She's pretty much the smartest person I know. And, you know, she she tells me that, you know, sometimes you just don't get to control who you are in time. right and like you don't get to control if you were born into the greatest generation you don't get to control if you're born into you know ten thousand bc or the nineteen thirties depression right like you just you are where you are these are the realities you get to deal with and it's on us to make the most of it and I think that when twenty twenty hit we really did evolve with difficulty because all of a sudden what was a very brick and mortar high human touch experience suddenly turned into a how do we even deliver this um and so I think since then both for economic reasons world happenstance um as well as the embarkation of ai and just like the last what eighteen months or so yeah we are evolving with difficulty because um we're not a very you know and I I say this with so much love because you know I grew up in this profession so to speak you know I I became a professional because I was a patient first such a common story in our world right and um We like to hold to our roots.

5:39 We believe very deeply in some of these deep-seated things that evolved with our North American or maybe our USA-based profession since the post-polio era. So much of that has carried through. I feel like with the disruption we've seen in just even the last three years or so, we've evolved with Great amount of difficulty because it's hard for such a large-hearted emotion on sleeve profession to change with some of these rapid changing times. To answer your second question, how have I evolved? I've calmed down. Okay. What does that mean? I've calmed down a little bit.

6:21 Um, you know, I've, uh, I've moved from, uh, entrepreneurial, uh, you know, heavy grind set type stage. Uh, I've shifted into academics. So, um, you know, I'm a professor and, and like a CU educator. Now I still do consulting work, but again, stepped away from that grind set of, uh, of entrepreneurial XYZ. And some of that's also kind of toned down to that was a very big emphasis in like the late twenty teens. It's like, you know, like the go get it, cash PT, you know, start up like we're just going to make this huge thing. I don't care about days off type mindset. And that's very much the opposite of like the the workplace cultural orientation right now.

7:02 That's a big, you're reading my mind. We're gonna get to that in a little bit, but I wanna go deeper and double click on one of the things that you had just said. And you just listed a ton of hats that you've worn in the last ten years. COO, CFO, professor, marketer, educator. Now I'll ask a question globally about that. What's been the most unexpected turn in your career path and what did it teach you personally about professional growth? So I would say it was the startup. That was not part of the roadmap. you know, where, where I, where I, how I got here. And I forget if we talked about, like, I have such a vivid memory of, of like the, like the latter half of our conversation. And I forget if we talked about how I got to this point, I'm pretty sure we did because, um, you know, that, that was, I think part of the, uh, part of the whole six pack idea was like, who are these six individuals?

7:50 You know, how did they get here and whatnot? And so just for the audience, so you don't have to scroll back like I wasn't a PT first. I was an engineer before I was a PT. And the way I got into the startup world was I hit a couple of glass ceilings in the corporate health acute care environment. And my hospital CEO, now retired, was mentoring me and said, look, if you want to make an impact beyond the therapy department, so to speak, you've got to get an MBA or an MPH, or you have to be something beyond your clinical doctorate, just because in the healthcare environment, especially corporate healthcare, they don't care. They don't even care if you're an MD, because you take a look at most of the corporate executive boardroom representatives, and most of the directors, most of the C-suite folks, they're accountants, or they're like, they're something else.

8:38 They're not clinicians. Um, and so I went to get the MBA, uh, that actually was also a little too early in the career path. And so it just turned out through, um, then Twitter, uh, different podcasts and blogs reach out. I was blogging at the time. And kind of like the podcast space just wasn't many PT blogs. And I was talking a lot about just the things that nobody wanted to talk about in the therapy, primarily money. And that's what formed then UpDoc Media and now UpDoc Inc, along with a couple other companies that we started and I've slowly stepped away from. That was the biggest pivot. It was never the plan for me to go into business for myself. It was always me to go back to the corporate health environment, some kind of triumphal return with my MBA and be like, ha, here I am again.

9:27 Yeah, exactly. We're going to change things now at a policy level. And it turns out that that didn't happen. But I did change things at an influence level. How'd that feel? Like, like it's almost like counting Monte Cristo, right? The count was like, I'm going to return. I'm going to show them what they missed out on. And then by the time you get there, you're like, I sort of don't care about proving them wrong. What I found is a way to prove my, find a place, create a place for myself that I'm even happier. Yeah, yeah. So it's so funny that you mentioned that because at one of the CSMs, and I feel like you and I, like whenever I do, I don't come to CSMs as often as I like to, but anytime that we are, we always somehow, we always like hitch the same room or the same hall patterns, you know?

10:10 And at one point I ran into my old boss's boss, right? And it was one of those like weird, weird moments where that boss almost didn't recognize me, right? And I was like, Yikes, you know? And what was really, really interesting was just kind of looking at the crew they were with and just kind of just gating the environment. I was like, wow, y'all haven't changed at all. Like not a single bit, you know? Like you're still doing the same things. You're still thinking the same things like professionally, clinically, all of it. And I was just like, yikes, there has been zero growth here at all. What was once, like you said, I'm going to get back and prove you all wrong, turned into a very, almost like a pathos type situation where I was just like, oh man, I kind of feel bad for you now.

10:59 All that cathartic vindiction type professional righteous indignation just evaporated in that moment. And I was just like, wow, there's been zero at all, no change. And I think that the feeling that I can really describe was a little bit of relief that I didn't return to that environment. Cause I think that would have sapped me dry, you know, that to, to know that. And I see this a lot in my consulting work is there's there's, we talk about this a lot we're going to release in the pulse and you know like there's always this question of like what are the true barriers of high team performance and excellent um organizational growth that kind of stuff culture uh etc and we've long identified the middle management link to be a problem not necessarily because of the middle managers are there but because the structure of the the organizations but at the same time there are certain people that are in play that have been there for years and years and years and years right and then I talked about this at um The NARA conference, for those of you who don't know, it's the National Association of Rehab Agencies and Providers.

12:00 And it's kind of private practice-esque. All to say that I was speaking on workforce engagement and organizational excellence. And I said, look, there are managers and there are managers. And some are there because they've been there forever and that's where they do the least amount of damage. And some are there because they're a linchpin and they've been there forever. And if we lost them, the whole department would evaporate. And so all of those type of thoughts and feelings flooded through. And I just realized that, wow, now this is good. Like where I am is good. I didn't need to go back to that corporate environment. I didn't need to go back in that same rigmarole. And I was making plenty difference doing what I was doing, which at the time was putting out industry reports and kind of transparent information pieces that just didn't exist, you know, and now it does, which is really, really great.

12:51 So talk about the pulse. I remember, I mean, again, I was still a student when I think you put out the first one, was that eight and a half? Yeah. And the way you would get salary information was like this, you'd roll into, I mean, I don't even know if there were Facebook groups then, you'd roll onto Twitter and you'd ask a question and be like, hi, I'm in this area of the country, I'm taking this job, what should I be asking for? And then you would get a wild- Oh yeah. You'd go into the comments of that, and you would get just a wild amount of responses, some just not even realistic, but you never knew. And then you were like, well, let's do the data on this, and you created sort of that thing.

13:32 So talk about what it is and if people haven't downloaded it or consumed it, what it was and what it has become. Yeah. That's great. That's great. So what it was, was actually a version two point zero of an MBA, like it was like the senior year, if you will, of an MBA coursework capstone project. And, you know, we're supposed to be like a huge industry report, like a perspective and stuff like that. So it was one segment of that was like, hey, how are you? What's the actual like national footprint map work of what are being paid and so forth? How it did come about is like what you said, then Twitter. I don't think there was any Facebook groups. If it did, maybe the DPT student group just started. But it was just like airwaves of like, hey, I'm in.

14:16 I'm making this up. Like, Illinois, I'm about to take a job for twenty seven dollars an hour. Is this OK? Right. No, no one had any clue. Right. And like I had some because I ran that report. So I had like kind of a more of a macro lens look of it. But. It's also very specific by like zip code, right? And you mentioned now you're a little bit more rural, right? So rural versus city versus suburban, that's different. Different states have different norms. And so what it used to be was I would send out these, I still use Google Forms just because everybody trusts it. I sent out these Google form surveys of like, hey, tell me what you're getting paid. It's fully anonymous. Drop all the information you could possibly drop that you're comfortable with. I will trend these and I will publish the raw data.

14:56 That's what it was. And that's what it continues to be. This year will be a little bit different because we're asking different questions, but that's what it continues to be. So it was the first and to my understanding, one of two, I think. open source data pool sets. I think I'm the only one that runs it in the kind of a high statistical analysis type environment. But all to say, it is a open source data pool. It primarily focuses in rehab therapy. So PT, OT, speech, PTA, OTA, SLPAs. But we have recreational therapists, nurses, pharmacists, PAs. They all drop their information in there. They had a dentist once put their information in there. I was like, wow, we're crossing the gaps. And so we trend for the per annum equivalent.

15:38 Um, because everybody will drop in like their hourly versus their annual versus their PRN versus the travel. We threw that in there, uh, even experience, uh, factors, uh, as specific as zip code. And so we trended all that stuff out, uh, year over year, we focus on slightly different pieces, but we always publish the raw data. So you can search for information like, okay, where's the zip code of, you know, nine to one Oh nine. And, um, how to get paid their PTAs or so forth. But then we also give like deep impressions as a periodical so you can just read it. And so it's read by candidates and hiring managers alike. And you can search for yourself, like what is the actual norm? And we throw the outliers out there, the experience factors, um if specialty even helps um and spoiler alert uh kind of none of it does uh what helps the most it seems to be his tenure so the longer you're at a place seems to get you paid the most um the first year it was like the most striking because we had this you know it was like the open section comment of uh you know what else you need to know and it was you could tell right it's like like back in like the aol aim messenger days you can tell when somebody's like really haughty about their words and you're just kind of typing it in a certain way and this guy was like or gal, I don't, I have no idea who this person was, but it was like, you know, I'm a senior therapist with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, I would say yours and web PT, like they're, they're very like wide in terms of profession,

17:08 but I would say those are the, those were the two that didn't exist. And when they did, it was the, it was, it was, it was like, you know, blood to a shark because we, all we had was the comment section. And that was just one person's opinion. And maybe they'd give some hard numbers, but probably not. So yours was the first one where people could actually say and you would put the end on how many pieces of data you were drawing that conclusion. It's right there. I actually I mean, there's over the years that we run it, I think we've there's been three people that have caught any kind of error or had kind of protest. And I think only one of them was truly like a mathematical error. And so people have checked our work.

17:48 You know, I welcome it. Like usually at the very bottom, like here, here's like the last like eight years of raw data. Have at it, guys. And now with like, you know, with general AI, I'm sure somebody is like going in there now going like, hey, is this, you know, depending on his math, right? You know, that's cool. I mean, that's that's what this whole thing was about. The mission of the pulse really was so that you could have a pulse on the job market. in the macro, in the micro, in the meta, and in a way where you could use it for yourself, whether you're a applicant or a hiring manager, just like FYI for career choices down the line. And it was always about wage transparency. And more importantly, in my opinion, was wage literacy. Yeah, being able to understand it. Well, something different, you talked about how long you're at an organization.

18:31 That might be a factor. Let's talk about versatility. You're a big advocate for the idea that your DPT can take you Anywhere. I'm a podcaster for Christmas sake. What do clinicians need to hear right now in twenty twenty five about stepping outside of that traditional clinical path that a lot of people are showing interest in? Oh, yeah. Huge. And it's honestly and this is where I feel like it goes back to the early part of today's episode is, you know, we've evolved with great difficulty. It's the same message I gave, I think, in like twenty sixteen, seventeen, which is the whole world is open to you. it really really is um I I know that there's there's still a stigma it's less so I think when I was um growing up in the profession excuse me uh there's this idea that you were like a traitor if you weren't hands-on patients or in the clinic walls or in the facility uh now less so right I mean there's telehealth there's a lot of different things um but if you take a look at a lot of other professions and I would I would advise you take a look at like uh pharmacists and nurses um They cover a lot more range.

19:35 And there's also regions for that because of how upstream they are in the health care latticework. But at the same time, it doesn't have to be the case. I was an engineer before. There's a lot of people I've met, especially at private practice events, where it's like their fourth career. They were like farmers and restaurateurs and real estate agents. And they're like, no, I need to do this. This is my calling. So what I think everyone needs to hear, if you're looking to step out of that, whether it's out of burnout or out of interest of just looking at something different, is that the world truly is open to you. However, it's a numbers game. I think that's what's really difficult for PTs and PTAs to understand is we are part of such a high-performing like self, what's the best word for this?

20:23 Like self-critical profession. You know, like we're perfectionists. Most of us are very type A professionally, but very type B corporately. you know we uh we're very down on ourselves more so than I think anybody else ever will be and we have this massive imposter syndrome and and none of that is bad per se it's just kind of the makeup of what draws folks to the profession I feel but it is a numbers game so if you're looking to get into corporate management or into marketing or into media or into research or into tech or into anything else you're going to have to apply yourself, whether it's through actual job applications or just the attempts that you're trying.

21:07 I'm just gonna throw out a number, like, ten times more than the average bear, right? And so it's going to require you to have thick enough skin to apply to, like, a hundred different jobs and receive work from only one or two of them. Because it really is a numbers game. Somebody, like, a human eye needs to take a look at you, whether it's on the application, the AI application portal, the PDF that you're printed out or emailed or cold called with, and go, you know what, like, I'll take a look at this, right, says the hiring manager and go, huh, wonder why a PT wants to apply for this job. That's weird. Like, I'm in my third coffee and I could mentally withstand this. Let's give this person a call, right? Like, that's, that's going to be the case. And it can be emotionally damaging to, you know, throw out like a thousand applications and receive nothing back, right?

21:53 It's just like, gee, like really no one wants me at all after all this, but it's not that no one wants you. It's that you just have to play enough of a numbers game to get noticed. And I think that's the reality of it. It shouldn't be that way, but also kind of earlier in the podcast has mentioned, we have to play within the reality that we're, we found ourselves find ourselves in and, in order to get the next step up, in order to change that reality for ourselves and others. Yeah, agreed. Let's take a different route. You've worked at high levels in business and leadership. You've been in boardrooms that maybe not everybody has been or will be in, and that's okay. What can you steal from the boardroom and give to someone right now? What's a lesson from a boardroom that every new grad should hear before starting their career?

22:38 Um, that's such a great, like again, compliments. I'm going to push back on something you said earlier today, Jimmy, is that I disagree with the fact that I think you did do something special. I think you had the professional background for this. Um, but I also feel like you have a naturally curious mind, you know, that's something that I feel like we always connected on, um, forever, you know, it's something I really. appreciated when I got to know you at first when you're still a student is that you thought beyond that kind of student acquisition mind into like, how do I like dig deeper into like the nature of this profession? So kudos to you. That said, the boardroom. No one ever really thinks about the boardroom. I don't think like I think people think they know it exists, right? But they don't understand what a board of director does, whether it's a board of directors, if it's executive advisor board, or if it's like a managing director board, like this, it's a deeper piece of the American organizational corporate culture.

23:32 Big or small, that just exists, right? And so I think it's important to define what that piece is, and then we can glean from the lessons of it. So for most boards, whether a board of directors, trustees, what have you, there's a group of individuals either voted in or appointed in, depending on the corporate structure, to essentially oversee and govern the CEO and the rest of the C-suite. That's their job. Often it's a mixture of folks that have direct stake interest in it, whether it's through equity finances or their stakeholders, like they'll be influenced by that particular corporation or entity or organization. And often they try to get folks that are, quote, lay people that don't know anything about the inner works of the profession because they bring a third eye lens that, you know, if you're too close to something, you just can't see.

24:18 So the the board of any kind of organization, typically their job is to make sure that the C-suite is doing their job and that they can prescribe grand stakes like hundred eighty degree arc visions of like, hey, let's go over there or let's go over here. And then the C-suite can choose how they want to get there. And so what happens in the boardroom is really fascinating because it's a grade A lesson on intra organizational politics. And I think the first thing I'll share a couple. First thing I think that most people need to hear is that board members typically are in service because they really do care. And it's not about the money for them because most of them are either volunteers or they get like a basic stipend.

25:03 And then the stipend has to be wiggled depending on how much liability they want to take on. So as an example, I'm actually the president of a school board. And so I take like a driving stipend. So I don't have like any kind of weird liability on top of me after that. And so even in that board, right, every single board member deeply cares about the success of the school, the students, the parents, the guardians, and so forth, the teachers, especially. We care a lot about the teachers. And that's the same thing as most of these corporate boardrooms is none of the board members are there like, you know, Monty Burns from Simpsons going, how can I steal from the little man? You know, like it's, that doesn't happen. They're, they're typically very, I mean, I've had board members come in with like, you know, and like, you know, sorry, you know, like I, I, I can, I feel like I can say this was years, this is years ago.

25:50 It's past like the thing, but it's like, they're like, I don't care about how the executives get paid. I care about how the teachers get paid, right. How the line staff get paid. And that's very common thread in these executive boardrooms. I think the second thing really is that there's not always enough power there for them to influence changes downstream, right? They can choose the C-suite and to a certain degree, like call it like the executive VPs or the VPs. But between the VP line and the line managers, that's all up to the organization. And I think that's where a lot of frustration occurs is that they're like, we have this great CEO, like we love them. But like, how come our GM at this, you know, or this regional manager at this area sucks so bad, you know, it's like, can't the board do something?

26:34 Well, the answer actually is no, it's outside of their jurisdiction. Otherwise, they're an overreaching board that creates a lot of different conflict and so forth. So I think, you know, to all to say that board members, a lot of these organizations, large and small, they really do care about the organization. Otherwise, they wouldn't be there. It's a lot of stress. It's a lot of time management. They're reading things and dealing with decisions that no one should ever have to deal with, honestly. And so they really do care. They wouldn't be there otherwise. They don't get paid enough for that problem. Right. You know, the CEO, CEO, CFO, they probably are paid enough for that problem, but the board members aren't. But they only influence so much. And so this is the piece I think everyone needs to hear is if you do have a concern, reach out to your board.

27:16 Most boards are compliant under certain public access information laws. So they can't just directly connect with you, but you can connect with them. So most of them have a hotline. Like my school board has a hotline. Every other corporate or executive advisory board I've served in has a hotline and every board that I have or just executive room that I've consulted for, they have a hotline. It's all inbound. They can't say anything outward just because there's a lot of regulations there. But reach out to them with your concerns. You know, you don't have to flame anybody. But, you know, if you do have concerns, bring it up because then they can change it at a procedural and policy level. Yeah. It's a smart, smart piece of advice. All right. Last thing I'll ask before we get into a speed round.

28:00 Awesome. How has your definition of success changed since twenty fourteen? We alluded to it not long ago. Right. Yeah. You know, first it was like, I can't wait to come back and triumphant return and show how I've changed. Yeah. But. But the second part of that question, after your definition of success has changed in the last ten years, what do you hope younger PTs that maybe are listening to this right now focus on more than just title or salary? Yeah, I think the best way to describe this is just to describe what my current definition of success is and then go back. So my current definition of success is time. So time, I think I started saying this around twenty nineteen.

28:41 Time is the one commodity you don't get back. Right. And time is a vehicle for value. It almost exists outside of the tangible in that sense. If we're going like hyper philosophical. But the more I can maximize my time, the more successful I feel that I am. And that's across all boundaries. You know, like I've. I believe strongly that the human experience is split into four macros, if you will. There's the physical, the intellectual, the emotional, and the spiritual, for lack of better terms. And I feel like the more you can maximize your time investments in these four circles and how they overlap, the more successful you feel like you are in life. And so some of the physical is financial. It's going to be we have to it's just part of life.

29:23 But there's other things, you know, and like ten years ago, you know, my kid was a little baby and, you know, there's that kind of things. And now he's in middle school. And so I have different understanding of how that time investment and time wealth, if you will, is. And so for other for some people, that might mean, OK, I need to, like, really figure out a way to create passive income. For others, they're like, okay, I just need to make sure that my day-to-day doesn't burn me down and I can spend good time with myself and my family at home or go on travels or whatever. So to me, success right now is A, time, and B, impact. So how much time can I invest in myself and meaningfully in others? And what does that downstream impact look like? know and so again for myself um you know my son uh the other day just really impressed me with his emotional intelligence and I was just like wow kid you're a kind kid you know that's special and that made like as a dad I was like that was a win you know that was cool and and that was success now ten years ago Ten years ago, I was indignant.

30:22 I was, again, a lot less calm, a little bit more brash, really wanted things to change overnight, didn't care who I offended, kind of still don't care who I offended. I just don't try to do it anymore. Yeah. And back then, success to me was radical change yesterday, you know, and it was and it was change according to Ben Fung. And, you know, I think that's a very myopic view where, you know, the world is so much bigger than my own mind. And I didn't have the humility or the maturity to see at the time. right? Like I, I got kind of launched into this journey because I was like, man, uh, whether for, for reasons or other reasons, I hit these glass ceilings and you know, like everyone wants me in leadership positions except for my bosses and like a couple of grumpy senior therapists, um, you know, screw them, right?

31:12 That kind of thought process was always there. And so success was coming back and going, ha, I was right the whole time you were wrong the whole time and so forth. And so it's very, uh, black and white back then it was very emotionally driven. Now it's a little bit more, you know, uh, a little more transcendent, you know? And I think what young professionals need to hear, whether you're a pre-grad or a new grad, really is to take a step back and take a look at what your next five, ten, maybe fifteen years of life needs to be for you to take a look at that. And it's going to change, right? Like every couple of years, your kind of life lens will change. And that's okay. That's just part of being human. But, you know, if ten years from where you are right now and you're a new grad and you're, I'm just going to make it, but you say you're in your mid-twenties, early thirties, and you're going, okay, I'm going to hit, you know, what do I need?

31:57 Forty to look like for me to feel like I didn't waste my life, right? Because what you really typically hear from most people at the end of their lives and I used to work with a lot of geriatrics regrets aren't based on what you did. They're based on what you didn't do or didn't try to at least do. So what do you need to attempt? now right to look back in ten years in your forties and go hey at least I tried that right right I had those experiences I had those adventures I had those those life tiles if you're into the game of life yeah well said yeah regret regret the things you do not the things you don't do is a great piece of advice I heard too all right ben it's time for game time All right, game time.

32:43 We're going to jump in the PT time machine. All right. I'm going to throw out a series. I'm going to throw out five topics. Okay. And I'll sort of frame what I thought it looked like in twenty fifteen. Okay. And then I want your your now interpretation on that. Right. All right. This is going to be good. In twenty fifteen, social media for PTs, I felt like was the Wild West. Oh, man. We were just yelling sort of in the void, a lot of yelling at each other instead of talking to each other. I feel like there is still some of that element there's always going to be. But I feel like we've we've started to get better at using it as a tool, as a as a platform to learn and change better than we did in twenty fifteen. Absolutely. Man, I think where it is now is interesting, because I feel like the conversations have centralized based on emotional valence, for lack of better terms.

33:30 So just full disclosure, I am older than I look, and I am just not on TikTok. uh that said you know throughout throughout the uh the like the wave since twenty fifteen you know it really was like everywhere there was like every possible emotion every possible topic on every possible channel now I feel like you got a lot more like professional like actual professional engagement in something like linkedin uh which was supposed to be that like what, eight years ago, they're like, yeah, LinkedIn's gonna be the next big thing. It just wasn't until probably like the last two years. I feel like, you know, X slash Twitter now is kind of small circle discussions really. And a little bit of yelling because that's just the platform. What's really interesting to me is that Instagram is really a place of like-mindedness, I feel.

34:15 There's a couple of common sections that are... you know, going to be a little bit atrocious just because that's how it is. Right. Anytime you open the conversation. But I feel like you find that like minds will gravitate to like minds in the space of Instagram. Facebook, ironically enough, is that much more personal. Most people don't engage on Facebook unless you actually know each other, which is really interesting. me because that just wasn't the case back in the day and then I'm taking off right like there's the two big groups I'm aware of is the actually now three there's a general physical therapy group that's like open to the all public um there's the dpt student group and there's like the pt uh education networking um know group and uh you know those groups have ballooned up um but even some what's interesting to me is that a lot of the conversations I kind of pulled back from those groups and they've really come to be a little bit more like full circle um in terms of your natural small group inclinations and so I think it's a little less wild west I feel like for lack of better terms I feel we're kind of breakfast clubby right now there we go yeah I think we're kind of in the breakfast club era of social media and pt Love it.

35:19 All right. Marketing yourself in twenty fifteen. We started the show. I feel like people like yourself, myself, we needed to explain like, no, you controlling your own message is necessary. And like there are right and wrong ways to do it. And I feel like the tide has turned where more people are under at least accepting of like, yeah, I need to do a better job of this. Yeah, absolutely. I think back then, Twitter was your only real place. And I actually can't tell you how many new grads actually got jobs from Twitter. Just being on Twitter, chatting when there's CSM or back then APTA Next or PPS, that's how students got jobs. It was crazy.

36:00 I think in the was able to leverage that was incredible. Now, it's very much back in LinkedIn, you know, and also like hyping your resume to be able to get through some AI filters that HR portals typically use. But I think people do understand it now. I think a lot more people are using LinkedIn because it's become that place for it. Frustrating as it is, which might be an off topic piece, but I do feel that people understand it. A lot of people are more aware, a lot more. I've noticed a lot more professionals have private Instagram handles now just to be able to create a little bit of dichotomy between their personal persona and their professional persona. And yeah, you do need to control that message for yourself or you have to be able to explain it, you know, depending on your work history.

36:45 uh because there's some of that contention there depending on where you are you know like you work for company a wow that was weird why did you work for them you know are you there for seven years you know blah blah and you have to be able to explain some of those things on a human to human element um so I definitely think the tide has turned people are aware and more people have uh come into the profession I think it's a tech generation thing uh just kind of naturally appreciating that that is part of their professional reality is managing their online footprint All right, last one we'll do for the time machine. I feel like ten years ago, work-life balance was not a phrase that we knew, and I feel like that's something that's got a lot of light shed on it now in twenty twenty five. For sure. Back then, actually, there was even a, going back to the whole entrepreneurial grind set, there was no balance, right?

37:29 The idea was like, if you were a hardcore entrepreneur by mind and by creed, by title, by life, there was no balance. You were always on. I don't know that that was the healthiest way of going about it. Now, work-life balance is everything and everywhere. We're running this info for The Pulse, and it's one of the top two non-salary-based factors candidates will judge if they want to apply or accept the position. It's just from the feel of walking through the clinic or the facility and going, yeah, I could see myself being okay here versus, yeah, they're going to run me into the ground here. And I think that managers are very aware of it. I think the corporate leaders are also very aware of it.

38:11 I think that what it really is, is that we have a coming generation where I was, again, my conversation, she's my muse, my wife. And I was talking about this because I was trying to like, was asking her like what should the central message of the pulse be for year ten right and it came back to like one of the the the bullet points if you will was that there is no work-life balance if you don't have a life to go back to right and I think that that is what changed is that Ten years ago, I think we were just in such a scramble professionally. And now, after kind of having the world turned upside down and shaken inside out, we kind of take a look at things and go, you know what?

38:51 It doesn't always have to be that way. There's a lot of different options that we can take. And so I do have a life I want to go back to. You heard me talk about it. I have time I want to get back or time I want to feed forward. And If I have that, then I do need work-life balance because work isn't my only life piece anymore. And so I think that that's a big piece and takeaway for, you know, if you're listening to this and you're on the line staff or line management line and, you know, sector of our profession and you're going, hmm, I feel a little bit burnt out or I feel a little bit antsy about where I am and versus, you know, middle managers and above. If you're a little worried about this is just ask yourself a simple question is, you know, is the work following your people home, right?

39:36 That's probably the number one question of if work-life balance is being breached is does the stress follow your people home? And if it does, you have some major reworking and thinking to do. Yeah, well said. All right, Ben, of course, you know, the last thing we do on the episode is called the parting shot. So that's your chance to be like prolific or mic drop moment. You can you can repeat something that's been said before. But what would be the idea or sentiment you'd want to leave with the audience as we wrap this one up? Ten years in the making. Ten years in the making. I think the mic drop moment goes back to one of the macro points that I only this weekend kind of shed light in my own mind about in terms of like the pulse and what has happened in the last ten years.

40:20 And it really has to do with where the progression of the profession has come and gone. And I take a look at it and it hurts me to say it. And I don't feel like we have grown up that much. I feel like we have grown wide. And that's okay. You need that to grow. You have to have a wide root bread to be able to grow a strong tall tree. But that said, we still need to grow vertically. I think the takeaway is this, that often in our profession, we are too short-sighted or short-term focused, despite us wanting to be long-term focused. And I think the big mic drop moment I keep seeing is whether it's in human resource management or in billing and revenue or in advocacy, even as we tend to fight these battles, you know, like quarter by quarter and year by year.

41:07 And we really need to start thinking about fighting these battles decade by decade. Because I'm truly concerned about where our profession is. Should we still do this ten years from now, like, twenty years later, right? Like, twenty-year reunion? I'm terrified for our profession that if we don't have a ten-year battle plan going forward, that we're going to feel like we're more in shambles than we are now. Because we need to fight for everything that has to do with the economic health, for lack of better terms, of our profession. And I think that as a profession, we're not taught that. know we're not taught that in school we're not taught to care about it in school and we're typically not taught to care about it as a new grad and that uh that those are formative years for our professional identity personally and in in the large scale of our profession and so I think you know the mic drop moment is my encouragement to you you know you listeners here at pt podcast is make sure you have a personal and a professional battle plan for the next ten years and a channel that you're willing to dedicate yourself to on how to make that happen.

42:08 So if you want PTs to be paid more, you need to fight for things that advocate specifically for revenue line and reimbursement change. If you have a passion for PTs to be able to break out of the clinical mold, then you need to fight in that battleground of how do I make more opportunities for myself and for our profession, maybe all of rehab therapy, to be able to break out of the clinical mold and into all these other pie sectors that we could exist in. And if something else is kind of tugging on your heart to do so, form that ten-year battle plan. Because I think that all too often, we only think in like, okay, how can we just make it through this next year and make it through this next year?

42:49 Because there is no next year unless we make it through this year, which is true. But there is no long-term future if we don't think decades ahead. Yeah, well said. Ben Fung, thanks for doing it ten years ago, and thanks for coming back to do it now, man. Much appreciated. Absolute privilege, pleasure, and honor. I'm so glad that you're doing this. When you reached out first, I was just like, dang, it has been ten years. And where can people find The Pulse if someone's listening and going, hey, give me that. How do I get that? So you can go to updocmedia.com. That's just U-P-D-O-C media.com. You can search a little magnifying glass thing. Every year, we have a direct URL. So it'll be updocmedia.com slash pulse dash the year.

43:32 So if you want to take a look at last year, we're recording this in early... I guess, spring of twenty five, you just go to Pulse dash twenty twenty four. I'll release a Pulse dash twenty twenty five soon. So maybe by the time this episode is released, you can just go there up.com slash Pulse dash twenty twenty five. But you'll see it all over the place. If you just Google job market pulse, it'll pop up. Perfect. Ben, Ben, thanks again for the time and the insight. You bet. Anytime.