Why So Many PT Leaders Feel Like Imposters

WEBVTT

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You're listening to the P.T.

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Pinecast,

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where smart people in healthcare come to

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make noise.

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Here's your host, Jimmy McKay.

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Welcome back to the show.

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I do want to say thanks to our

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It's S-A-R-A, health.com.

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Now, in healthcare,

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most clinicians spend years learning how

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to treat patients,

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but almost no time learning how to lead

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people.

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Then one day, congratulations,

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you've been promoted.

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Now you're running a team,

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managing schedules,

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making operational decisions,

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and sitting in meetings with

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administrators who seem to speak

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completely different languages.

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It's a moment many clinicians quietly

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wonder the same thing.

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Do I actually belong here?

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Or when are people going to figure out

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that I don't belong here?

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I've thought that.

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Today's guest has spent more than two

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decades helping healthcare professionals

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find their voice,

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both literally as a speech language

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pathologist and figuratively as someone

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who coaches leaders to step into their

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expertise.

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Let's welcome back to the show,

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Katie Holterman.

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Katie, welcome back.

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Thank you.

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It's been a while.

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Let's kick this off.

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Imposter syndrome was something I'd never

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heard of until I did.

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And it sort of put words to this

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feeling that I thought only I had,

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which I'm sure is somewhere in the

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definition of imposter syndrome.

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Why does imposter syndrome show up so

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often in healthcare leadership,

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as I mentioned in the intro?

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Yeah, we are not trained in leadership.

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We don't have the training involved in

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this.

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We don't have the prep.

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So many times it's, you know, hey,

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you've done a good job.

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Would you like to lead this team?

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You know,

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you've done a good job in XYZ.

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I think you could lead this.

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I think you could be on this committee.

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And it doesn't necessarily even have to be

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a title of, you know,

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you are the director of rehab or you

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are an executive here.

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It could be, hey,

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I want you to lead this committee or

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I want you to, you know, mentor somebody.

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And

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And as clinicians,

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we don't have training in this.

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We have training in clinical skills and

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that kind of where it stops.

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So you get placed in this and you

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kind of go,

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what the heck am I actually doing here?

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And do I belong?

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So someone might be spotting the raw

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materials in what would make a good

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leader.

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But if you're not shown how to apply

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those.

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you can now you'll now feel like a

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fish out of water and also you might

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not do a great job it's similar it's

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very clear when you say well i've spotted

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somebody who's a great college student

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they'll make a great clinician we still

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put them through school to get them there

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it's very obvious there and there's

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actually something called when i found

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this out i was able to spot more

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than a few people i know of the

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peter principle have you heard of the

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peter principle yeah rise to the level of

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your incompetence essentially you might be

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a great clinician now you're the degree

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you're you've been promoted to director

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you might be great at that then you

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get promoted to regional director and

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somewhere between that first uh sorry the

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first promotion the second promotion you

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actually don't have those skills or you

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just weren't taught them

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So you're bad at that regional job,

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that higher job, but you're never demoted.

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So now you're in a job you don't

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have the skill set for, the training for,

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right?

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We don't know which one it is or

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both, but you don't get demoted.

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So now going forward,

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you're sort of stuck there.

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So we can spot this because we want

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to make sure we can do stuff with

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it.

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What are the common signs that someone

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might be dealing with

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with imposter syndrome?

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What are the things that we can either

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look for in ourselves or others to help

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spot these?

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What are the signs?

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What are the symptoms?

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Yeah.

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Well, the first thing is everybody has it.

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Everybody's dealing with it.

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So the sign is look to your left

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and look to your right.

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And there it is.

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In yourself, there's actually,

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so Valerie Young is somebody who I think

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everybody should follow.

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She's a great leader in this field.

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And she's identified five or talks about

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five profiles of imposter syndrome.

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Oh, I like this.

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And that is where I think everybody can

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identify with at least one profile.

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If you're an overachiever like me,

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you identify with all five profiles

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depending on the day or the week or

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the position that you're in.

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But the five profiles are the soloist,

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right?

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I don't need anybody else.

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I should be able to do this alone.

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And if I can't do it alone,

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then I'm not good.

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The natural genius,

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which is if I struggle,

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I must not be good at this.

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The expert,

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which is I need to be an expert

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in everything.

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And if I'm not an expert in everything

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or I need to be an expert in

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this,

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I can't not know everything about it.

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The superhuman,

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which is I must do it all.

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And if I can't do it all,

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then I'm doing something wrong.

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And then the perfectionist, which,

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you know, if I can't do it perfectly,

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then it's failure all before it even

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began, right?

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So identifying where you fit or where

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you're feeling in the profile at the given

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time.

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helps to at least name it,

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which is a strategy, right?

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So name it, say it,

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this is what it is.

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And recognize that it's universal.

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Everybody's feeling it.

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Everybody's walking around feeling like an

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imposter.

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It's a universal issue.

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And so sometimes when you just say it

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out loud, it helps.

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Now,

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as you mentioned sort of those five types,

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A couple of them felt pretty close,

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but I'm guessing you might.

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I feel like I do some of those

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sometimes and not all the time.

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Absolutely.

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Is that common?

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Absolutely.

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Okay, got it.

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I'm not always this or that.

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Nope.

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And it's going to be situational.

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And here's the thing with imposter

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syndrome.

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Imposter syndrome in and of itself is

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situational.

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And this is a common misconception.

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So I have a lot of people who

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will say to me,

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I'm a relatively confident person.

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So why do I feel like an imposter

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in this situation?

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And that's key for imposter syndrome in

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and of itself.

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Imposter syndrome is not a lack of

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confidence.

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It's a lack of confidence in a specific

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situation.

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Got it.

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So you may feel like

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a superhuman profile when you are managing

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your radio show, right?

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Managing your podcast.

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Right.

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Because you need to do it all great

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all the time.

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But when you are

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XYZ, you know,

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in a different aspect of your world,

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you may feel like, well, I can do,

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you know,

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I don't have to do it all.

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I can take a step back.

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That's not the profile you're feeling in

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that moment.

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You know,

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I feel like a superhuman when I'm trying

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to manage work-life balance,

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when I'm trying to manage, you know,

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am I able to give enough at work

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and able to give enough at home?

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And am I able to, you know,

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I think a lot of, you know,

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Mothers feel like this at times.

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Right.

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Family, you know, whatever.

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But at work,

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I don't necessarily feel like I have to

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take it on.

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That's not my imposter syndrome profile at

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work.

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The expert is, though,

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I need to know it exactly right.

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And if I don't know it exactly right,

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then I'm an imposter.

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So it depends on the situation.

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But the confidence is, again,

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situation and situationally specific.

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Yeah, yeah.

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How does imposter syndrome affect

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decisions though?

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Like leadership decisions inside of a

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clinic?

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Essentially knowing about this is one

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thing, right?

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Understanding the signs and symptoms,

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but then what does it do?

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How does it now affect decision-making?

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Because if I,

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I'm able to speak confidently about this,

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not from an expert perspective,

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but this is me, right?

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Several times during a day.

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It does sort of affect decisions.

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So lay that out for me.

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Absolutely.

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So depending on the decision that you're

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making,

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you're either going to to overcompensate,

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you're going to not want to come off

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as being needing help.

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So you're going to put all of your

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effort in and you're going to make that

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decision on your own when in fact,

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probably could have been a better decision

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had you collaborated with somebody else.

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But because you feel like an imposter,

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if you ask for help.

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That's it right there.

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Exactly.

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Or you become paralyzed with the decision

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making, right?

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So decision paralysis where you feel like,

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okay, I need to make it perfect.

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before I go and take that next step

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and the perfectionist profile comes in.

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So if it's not perfect,

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then I don't make the decision.

00:10:02.471 --> 00:10:03.772
I don't lead the team in the way

00:10:03.812 --> 00:10:04.631
it needs to be.

00:10:04.951 --> 00:10:07.892
So every profile has a different aspect of

00:10:08.592 --> 00:10:11.373
paralysis and decision making or

00:10:11.852 --> 00:10:14.033
leadership,

00:10:14.094 --> 00:10:18.374
halting leadership potential because

00:10:18.815 --> 00:10:20.815
you're limiting yourself.

00:10:21.259 --> 00:10:21.500
Yeah.

00:10:21.980 --> 00:10:24.562
So you said imposter syndrome gets really,

00:10:24.621 --> 00:10:27.123
really dangerous when it goes unspoken,

00:10:27.583 --> 00:10:27.803
right?

00:10:27.823 --> 00:10:29.644
Because I've heard this before.

00:10:29.684 --> 00:10:30.905
And the first couple of times I heard

00:10:30.926 --> 00:10:31.806
it, I was like, I didn't understand it.

00:10:32.086 --> 00:10:34.248
No decision is still a decision.

00:10:34.307 --> 00:10:35.928
When I've decided not to do anything,

00:10:36.469 --> 00:10:37.450
and somebody gave it to me in a

00:10:37.490 --> 00:10:38.250
great example,

00:10:38.269 --> 00:10:40.451
which is if you're crossing a busy street,

00:10:41.272 --> 00:10:42.432
and all of a sudden you recognize a

00:10:42.472 --> 00:10:43.452
car's coming, well,

00:10:43.472 --> 00:10:44.533
I could run to the other side of

00:10:44.553 --> 00:10:44.793
the street,

00:10:44.813 --> 00:10:45.653
or I could run back to where I

00:10:45.693 --> 00:10:46.134
came from.

00:10:47.148 --> 00:10:49.090
Or do I stand still because that's no

00:10:49.129 --> 00:10:49.610
decision?

00:10:49.770 --> 00:10:50.932
And sometimes standing still in the middle

00:10:50.952 --> 00:10:52.553
of the street still gets me hit by

00:10:52.573 --> 00:10:53.254
the car, right?

00:10:53.274 --> 00:10:55.957
So no decision, indecision is a decision.

00:10:56.458 --> 00:10:57.639
So you've said it becomes dangerous when

00:10:57.679 --> 00:10:58.561
it goes unspoken.

00:10:58.640 --> 00:10:59.461
I feel like as soon as you start

00:10:59.501 --> 00:11:00.043
talking about it,

00:11:00.082 --> 00:11:01.884
you find you lead your way to an

00:11:01.965 --> 00:11:02.164
answer.

00:11:02.184 --> 00:11:04.327
So why is it so dangerous then?

00:11:05.596 --> 00:11:08.499
I think it's dangerous because if you're

00:11:08.798 --> 00:11:10.961
if you are trying to internalize all of

00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:12.201
this and you are again,

00:11:12.422 --> 00:11:14.663
it kind of goes back to the fact

00:11:14.703 --> 00:11:18.086
that this is a universal issue that nobody

00:11:18.187 --> 00:11:20.568
talks about or doesn't talk about enough.

00:11:21.870 --> 00:11:23.591
So then you're feeling like, well,

00:11:23.951 --> 00:11:27.434
I'm all alone in this and I'm not

00:11:28.015 --> 00:11:30.398
asking for help or I'm I'm trying to

00:11:30.437 --> 00:11:32.599
do it all or I'm

00:11:33.778 --> 00:11:37.490
not forgiving of myself in this situation,

00:11:39.426 --> 00:11:42.168
And so it leads to being run over

00:11:42.188 --> 00:11:43.028
in the middle of the street.

00:11:43.048 --> 00:11:45.772
That's essentially what that end result

00:11:45.792 --> 00:11:50.216
will be, rather than saying, you know,

00:11:50.355 --> 00:11:53.077
it's okay if I make a mistake.

00:11:53.118 --> 00:11:56.120
It's okay if I don't have the perfect

00:11:56.280 --> 00:11:59.423
answer for this situation.

00:12:01.566 --> 00:12:02.746
One of the things that I always like

00:12:02.787 --> 00:12:05.349
to tell people is borrow confidence.

00:12:06.106 --> 00:12:08.668
from the work that you're doing and don't

00:12:08.788 --> 00:12:09.707
switch it around.

00:12:09.788 --> 00:12:13.489
So don't wait to be confident to do

00:12:14.129 --> 00:12:14.889
the thing.

00:12:15.649 --> 00:12:16.809
Do the thing.

00:12:18.389 --> 00:12:22.571
Clock the wins and then that will grow

00:12:22.951 --> 00:12:24.912
the decision making and the confidence

00:12:24.951 --> 00:12:25.951
that comes behind it.

00:12:27.423 --> 00:12:29.024
Is that sort of like motion creates

00:12:29.065 --> 00:12:29.445
emotion,

00:12:29.485 --> 00:12:31.826
but a little bit of action creates a

00:12:31.866 --> 00:12:33.128
little bit of confidence and then a little

00:12:33.148 --> 00:12:34.548
bit of constant confidence creates a

00:12:34.570 --> 00:12:35.190
little bit of action.

00:12:35.570 --> 00:12:36.410
Exactly.

00:12:36.691 --> 00:12:37.231
Exactly.

00:12:37.331 --> 00:12:37.611
Yeah.

00:12:37.792 --> 00:12:39.533
It's, you know, take the win,

00:12:40.355 --> 00:12:42.876
learn from the win and use the win.

00:12:42.897 --> 00:12:42.996
Right.

00:12:44.258 --> 00:12:44.437
Yeah.

00:12:44.457 --> 00:12:45.619
I mean,

00:12:45.659 --> 00:12:46.860
some of the best advice I was ever

00:12:46.900 --> 00:12:47.701
given is, you know,

00:12:49.044 --> 00:12:50.005
and I know this is probably a little

00:12:50.046 --> 00:12:51.648
gender based, right?

00:12:51.727 --> 00:12:53.109
Men never ask for directions.

00:12:53.129 --> 00:12:54.870
And I just sort of leaned into that.

00:12:54.890 --> 00:12:55.272
I was like,

00:12:55.331 --> 00:12:56.452
but I feel like if I ask for

00:12:56.493 --> 00:12:56.972
directions,

00:12:56.993 --> 00:12:58.855
I'll just get to where I'm going faster.

00:12:58.875 --> 00:12:59.775
And the person I'm going to ask for

00:12:59.816 --> 00:13:01.298
directions a lot of times is a stranger.

00:13:01.638 --> 00:13:03.700
I sort of don't care if they know

00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:04.681
that I don't know where I'm going at

00:13:04.721 --> 00:13:04.821
all.

00:13:04.841 --> 00:13:05.962
So I don't think it matters if I

00:13:06.003 --> 00:13:06.182
know

00:13:06.738 --> 00:13:07.698
I don't know where I'm going.

00:13:07.719 --> 00:13:08.719
The point is to get there.

00:13:08.739 --> 00:13:09.899
Right, exactly.

00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:10.399
Which, again,

00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:13.861
is a simple but not easy explanation of

00:13:14.121 --> 00:13:15.182
what to do in that situation.

00:13:15.482 --> 00:13:16.484
But I get caught in that.

00:13:16.803 --> 00:13:19.024
You know, sort of know your superpowers,

00:13:19.346 --> 00:13:20.225
know your limitations,

00:13:20.245 --> 00:13:21.147
but also know your strengths.

00:13:21.527 --> 00:13:22.047
My strengths,

00:13:22.086 --> 00:13:22.868
or I like to think it is,

00:13:22.888 --> 00:13:23.868
is people, right?

00:13:24.188 --> 00:13:25.188
So when I'm in a situation where I

00:13:25.208 --> 00:13:26.610
don't know how to proceed,

00:13:27.090 --> 00:13:28.750
a lot of times I do try to

00:13:28.831 --> 00:13:31.493
figure out, listening to the five...

00:13:33.394 --> 00:13:36.135
sort of avatars where I'm sitting there

00:13:36.176 --> 00:13:37.777
going, well, I got hired to do this.

00:13:37.856 --> 00:13:38.657
Now I need to know how to do

00:13:38.817 --> 00:13:41.259
all of it myself or I'm no good.

00:13:41.298 --> 00:13:43.080
So it feels like soloists or

00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:44.260
perfectionists or whatever,

00:13:44.660 --> 00:13:45.400
mix of all those.

00:13:45.421 --> 00:13:48.222
And then I eventually come to a point

00:13:48.243 --> 00:13:50.024
on a project that I'm like, well,

00:13:50.043 --> 00:13:51.424
I could just ask someone how to do

00:13:51.445 --> 00:13:52.365
this one thing.

00:13:52.625 --> 00:13:53.725
And most of the people that I know

00:13:53.745 --> 00:13:54.187
would just be like,

00:13:54.206 --> 00:13:56.288
they'll just tell me because they want to

00:13:56.307 --> 00:13:56.847
be helpful.

00:13:57.568 --> 00:13:59.509
And I wind up realizing that your

00:13:59.529 --> 00:14:00.890
superpower is actually the people around

00:14:00.910 --> 00:14:01.030
you.

00:14:01.774 --> 00:14:02.134
Absolutely.

00:14:02.154 --> 00:14:03.535
Not wanting to admit like I don't know,

00:14:03.696 --> 00:14:06.517
that's an internal barrier to me and

00:14:06.576 --> 00:14:06.898
others.

00:14:07.597 --> 00:14:09.538
Well, and that's exactly it.

00:14:11.740 --> 00:14:14.642
You're doing a disservice to yourself,

00:14:15.121 --> 00:14:16.322
but at the same time,

00:14:16.341 --> 00:14:18.363
you're also doing disservice to others to

00:14:18.423 --> 00:14:20.605
allow them to help you and allow them

00:14:20.644 --> 00:14:22.065
to grow as a leader, right?

00:14:22.085 --> 00:14:26.047
Because that's how we grow leadership is

00:14:26.727 --> 00:14:30.769
every question that is asked of us

00:14:31.750 --> 00:14:36.153
we give an answer we learn about ourselves

00:14:36.394 --> 00:14:38.777
and we learn about the thing that we're

00:14:38.797 --> 00:14:41.759
being asked about one of the best ways

00:14:41.779 --> 00:14:45.923
to overcome the expert profile or you know

00:14:45.964 --> 00:14:48.186
the expert profile or whatever yeah right

00:14:48.686 --> 00:14:52.450
exactly is teaching someone and

00:14:53.951 --> 00:14:55.672
proving to yourself how much you know.

00:14:56.152 --> 00:14:57.993
Well, every time you,

00:14:58.273 --> 00:15:00.793
as a person feeling imposter syndrome who

00:15:00.813 --> 00:15:01.913
feels like they have to take it on

00:15:02.134 --> 00:15:05.195
themselves, doesn't ask for help,

00:15:05.434 --> 00:15:07.495
you're not allowing somebody else with

00:15:07.535 --> 00:15:10.397
imposter syndrome to overcome their own

00:15:10.437 --> 00:15:12.837
imposter syndrome by teaching and by

00:15:13.097 --> 00:15:13.938
helping themselves.

00:15:13.999 --> 00:15:15.918
So it's like this cycle where we all

00:15:15.938 --> 00:15:18.440
just have to borrow from each other's

00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:19.380
imposter syndromes.

00:15:21.421 --> 00:15:22.881
It's also been shown and I've seen

00:15:22.922 --> 00:15:27.403
examples where they've proved that someone

00:15:27.423 --> 00:15:29.403
in a room in a decision making,

00:15:29.663 --> 00:15:29.863
you know,

00:15:29.903 --> 00:15:31.263
in a team and a decision making,

00:15:31.283 --> 00:15:33.803
the person who asks the most questions

00:15:34.024 --> 00:15:35.984
actually winds up looking like they have

00:15:36.384 --> 00:15:39.325
more authority than they would if they

00:15:39.565 --> 00:15:41.586
only tried to answer things or if they

00:15:41.605 --> 00:15:42.846
kept their mouth shut the whole time.

00:15:42.865 --> 00:15:42.946
Yeah.

00:15:44.561 --> 00:15:45.041
And it actually,

00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.562
the thing that I was reading said that

00:15:47.602 --> 00:15:50.544
the person asking the most basic questions

00:15:51.125 --> 00:15:53.966
actually winds up looking like they know

00:15:54.008 --> 00:15:56.288
the most or close to it because it

00:15:56.328 --> 00:15:57.649
shows that they're trying to make,

00:15:57.929 --> 00:16:00.272
they're not trying to come and exert their

00:16:00.312 --> 00:16:00.952
authority.

00:16:01.432 --> 00:16:02.874
They're trying to show that they're

00:16:02.894 --> 00:16:04.134
looking for understanding.

00:16:04.955 --> 00:16:05.315
Right.

00:16:05.456 --> 00:16:06.176
Exactly.

00:16:06.196 --> 00:16:07.376
This is my secret for trying to look

00:16:07.397 --> 00:16:09.119
like the most interesting person at a

00:16:09.158 --> 00:16:11.020
dinner party is I just ask questions.

00:16:11.061 --> 00:16:12.001
I don't answer any of them.

00:16:13.663 --> 00:16:14.403
He's really interesting.

00:16:14.423 --> 00:16:15.024
I was like, no,

00:16:15.044 --> 00:16:15.705
I just asked a bunch.

00:16:15.785 --> 00:16:17.106
I mean, that's the cheat code, right?

00:16:17.167 --> 00:16:19.568
But it works not as a trick,

00:16:19.589 --> 00:16:21.071
but as a method.

00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:22.440
Absolutely.

00:16:22.460 --> 00:16:23.020
You know,

00:16:23.061 --> 00:16:25.962
and then there's a whole other part of

00:16:26.003 --> 00:16:26.283
that,

00:16:26.342 --> 00:16:28.583
which is how do you ask the question,

00:16:28.644 --> 00:16:28.984
right?

00:16:30.225 --> 00:16:34.048
The words matter and the way you ask

00:16:34.067 --> 00:16:34.607
the question,

00:16:36.269 --> 00:16:37.950
there's something to the effect of,

00:16:37.990 --> 00:16:40.971
you know, if I ask you, well,

00:16:42.253 --> 00:16:45.674
I'm not sure if I understood that versus

00:16:46.355 --> 00:16:48.436
here's what I hear and here's what I

00:16:48.475 --> 00:16:49.157
took from this.

00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.640
Let's make sure we're on the same page.

00:16:51.880 --> 00:16:56.503
That's a different way of communicating

00:16:57.163 --> 00:17:01.205
and acting confident even when you're not.

00:17:01.225 --> 00:17:02.025
Think until you make it.

00:17:03.145 --> 00:17:03.866
Chris Voss,

00:17:03.886 --> 00:17:05.126
are you familiar with Chris Voss?

00:17:06.028 --> 00:17:07.268
FBI hostage negotiator.

00:17:07.307 --> 00:17:08.229
I reference him often.

00:17:08.269 --> 00:17:10.250
I think his tactics are stunningly simple

00:17:10.289 --> 00:17:11.069
and very powerful.

00:17:11.410 --> 00:17:12.931
He even just talks about mirroring.

00:17:14.405 --> 00:17:17.469
Where he'll just repeat the last two to

00:17:17.528 --> 00:17:19.109
four words that someone said.

00:17:19.650 --> 00:17:21.551
Because he's pointed out if you ask

00:17:21.592 --> 00:17:23.673
someone a question about what they just

00:17:23.693 --> 00:17:23.854
said,

00:17:23.874 --> 00:17:24.974
a lot of times they'll just repeat what

00:17:24.994 --> 00:17:27.557
they just said louder or faster.

00:17:27.576 --> 00:17:28.057
Right.

00:17:28.156 --> 00:17:30.098
Because they feel questioned.

00:17:30.578 --> 00:17:32.181
But if you don't question,

00:17:32.621 --> 00:17:34.343
if you go with... And he literally says,

00:17:34.742 --> 00:17:35.303
because again,

00:17:35.544 --> 00:17:37.265
as a former hostage negotiator,

00:17:38.125 --> 00:17:39.527
he didn't have a lot of leverage.

00:17:39.547 --> 00:17:39.646
Right.

00:17:40.532 --> 00:17:42.973
The hostage taker had people or whatever.

00:17:43.513 --> 00:17:45.534
And his job was to build rapport.

00:17:46.255 --> 00:17:47.795
And he would talk about that process of

00:17:47.894 --> 00:17:49.674
mirroring and how powerful it is.

00:17:49.734 --> 00:17:51.875
And it almost feels like a cheat code

00:17:51.895 --> 00:17:52.796
when you start using it,

00:17:52.836 --> 00:17:54.936
especially someone in my job as an

00:17:54.997 --> 00:17:55.376
interviewer.

00:17:55.416 --> 00:17:56.977
But people in healthcare,

00:17:57.237 --> 00:17:59.357
you're professional interviewers too.

00:17:59.917 --> 00:18:02.018
Using these very basic but powerful tools

00:18:02.479 --> 00:18:03.759
can get you a lot of information.

00:18:04.337 --> 00:18:06.219
absolutely think about how many times you

00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:08.060
you know when you're talking with a

00:18:08.101 --> 00:18:09.721
patient and you're trying to get their his

00:18:09.761 --> 00:18:11.343
your their case history you know their

00:18:11.502 --> 00:18:14.586
their medical history and you have to

00:18:14.625 --> 00:18:16.326
phrase something a little bit different

00:18:16.707 --> 00:18:20.130
way to get them to talk about what

00:18:20.150 --> 00:18:21.550
they've you know what they've been doing

00:18:21.590 --> 00:18:23.553
so it's it's all communication factors and

00:18:23.593 --> 00:18:26.634
how we can phrase things suddenly me

00:18:26.654 --> 00:18:28.076
getting a degree in communications seems

00:18:28.256 --> 00:18:28.635
like

00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:31.000
Like it was a good idea,

00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:32.621
not just I wanted to play radio and

00:18:32.641 --> 00:18:34.280
make funny videos and things like that for

00:18:34.300 --> 00:18:34.540
a job.

00:18:36.260 --> 00:18:39.261
Outside of knowing those avatars that you

00:18:39.301 --> 00:18:40.041
mentioned before,

00:18:40.082 --> 00:18:42.622
and I'll put the link to that guide

00:18:42.682 --> 00:18:44.123
I found online in the show notes,

00:18:44.163 --> 00:18:46.843
but what's a practical tool you'd suggest

00:18:46.883 --> 00:18:49.564
for leaders so they can use when imposter

00:18:49.584 --> 00:18:51.584
syndrome shows up in the moment?

00:18:51.604 --> 00:18:55.964
I think two main things that...

00:18:57.272 --> 00:19:00.455
actually three.

00:19:00.536 --> 00:19:03.038
Again, the avatar is one thing, right?

00:19:03.698 --> 00:19:05.420
Identifying that, but just naming it.

00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:08.001
That's the most important thing is this,

00:19:08.221 --> 00:19:11.464
this is showing up right now as an

00:19:11.585 --> 00:19:12.505
expert profile.

00:19:13.786 --> 00:19:15.167
Now, let me learn, you know,

00:19:15.228 --> 00:19:17.128
learn strategies to help overcome that.

00:19:18.230 --> 00:19:21.152
So that's number one.

00:19:21.272 --> 00:19:22.834
One of the best things that I think

00:19:24.392 --> 00:19:27.334
helps people in different moments

00:19:27.614 --> 00:19:30.576
different scenarios is building what i

00:19:30.615 --> 00:19:33.176
call i'm really actually factually good at

00:19:33.217 --> 00:19:38.160
this um list whatever that list is so

00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:42.823
i'm really actually factually good at you

00:19:42.843 --> 00:19:44.644
know leading a meeting and here's how i

00:19:44.703 --> 00:19:47.266
know that and putting the proof the

00:19:47.385 --> 00:19:50.087
evidence list in front of you so

00:19:51.468 --> 00:19:53.429
all the certifications that you have,

00:19:53.989 --> 00:19:56.069
all the praise that you've gotten.

00:19:56.790 --> 00:19:59.372
And that can be any kind of praise.

00:19:59.511 --> 00:20:01.032
It can be a thank you note you

00:20:01.073 --> 00:20:01.972
got from a patient.

00:20:02.232 --> 00:20:04.575
It can be a performance review where you

00:20:04.634 --> 00:20:05.434
kicked ass.

00:20:05.954 --> 00:20:08.576
It can be a LinkedIn message of, hey,

00:20:08.676 --> 00:20:10.938
I saw this that you posted and it

00:20:10.998 --> 00:20:11.758
really spoke to me.

00:20:11.798 --> 00:20:12.219
I liked it.

00:20:12.298 --> 00:20:12.699
Thank you.

00:20:12.878 --> 00:20:14.920
Print that out and post it somewhere,

00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:15.339
right?

00:20:15.779 --> 00:20:17.201
It can be a Teams message,

00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:18.061
a Slack message.

00:20:18.102 --> 00:20:18.481
It can be

00:20:19.317 --> 00:20:20.138
It can be, you know,

00:20:20.298 --> 00:20:22.300
a word on the street, write it down,

00:20:22.681 --> 00:20:26.403
but have that actually factually good at

00:20:26.564 --> 00:20:28.326
list in front of you so that you

00:20:28.346 --> 00:20:30.327
can refer back to it in that moment

00:20:30.587 --> 00:20:31.888
when you're starting to doubt.

00:20:31.929 --> 00:20:34.550
Because what happens is our mind always

00:20:34.590 --> 00:20:36.613
goes to the weakness.

00:20:36.772 --> 00:20:38.414
Our mind always goes to, you know,

00:20:38.634 --> 00:20:40.395
when put in that in that moment,

00:20:40.435 --> 00:20:42.657
you're going to think of the same or

00:20:42.698 --> 00:20:46.181
similar type of moment that you had where

00:20:46.201 --> 00:20:46.821
you messed up.

00:20:47.502 --> 00:20:49.423
where you weren't at your best.

00:20:49.683 --> 00:20:50.644
It's what our mind does.

00:20:50.683 --> 00:20:51.644
It's a natural thing.

00:20:52.065 --> 00:20:53.945
So if you have the actually factually good

00:20:54.006 --> 00:20:56.185
at list in front of you,

00:20:56.646 --> 00:20:59.607
now you're countering your own mind to

00:20:59.667 --> 00:21:02.308
say, no, wait, I know that happened once.

00:21:03.368 --> 00:21:04.509
I know I walked into the room and

00:21:04.549 --> 00:21:08.290
tripped and fell and made a fool of

00:21:08.310 --> 00:21:09.771
myself in front of my team.

00:21:09.912 --> 00:21:12.051
And now nobody sees me as a leader.

00:21:12.092 --> 00:21:13.413
They see me as this fool.

00:21:14.472 --> 00:21:15.814
Okay, yeah, that happened once.

00:21:16.690 --> 00:21:16.869
You know,

00:21:16.910 --> 00:21:18.191
not saying that was from personal

00:21:18.211 --> 00:21:20.692
experience or anything, but, you know,

00:21:20.971 --> 00:21:22.211
maybe that happened one time.

00:21:22.673 --> 00:21:24.472
But actually, factually,

00:21:25.114 --> 00:21:27.974
I've led teams of twenty seven people and

00:21:28.414 --> 00:21:30.695
have gotten great buy in and have forged

00:21:30.736 --> 00:21:33.596
good relationships and promoted three of

00:21:33.636 --> 00:21:36.578
my team members up the ranks that actually

00:21:36.618 --> 00:21:37.538
factually happened.

00:21:37.558 --> 00:21:38.219
Yeah.

00:21:38.459 --> 00:21:38.638
Yeah.

00:21:38.679 --> 00:21:39.680
The tripping and falling might have

00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:40.420
happened, too.

00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:42.520
But here's my actually factually list.

00:21:42.540 --> 00:21:43.461
Yeah.

00:21:43.721 --> 00:21:43.961
Yeah.

00:21:44.826 --> 00:21:46.969
What would you say to a clinician sitting

00:21:47.009 --> 00:21:50.790
quietly in leadership meetings right now?

00:21:51.192 --> 00:21:55.194
Because a meeting is an arena, right?

00:21:55.214 --> 00:21:56.756
You've made it to that and you're looking

00:21:56.816 --> 00:21:57.195
around.

00:21:57.476 --> 00:21:58.616
I've been in rooms where I'm like,

00:22:00.338 --> 00:22:01.439
not sure how I got here.

00:22:01.459 --> 00:22:03.740
I jokingly was in a very large meeting

00:22:03.881 --> 00:22:07.743
and I very clearly was background, age,

00:22:07.943 --> 00:22:08.364
all of it,

00:22:08.424 --> 00:22:10.846
like the sticking out like a sore thumb.

00:22:10.885 --> 00:22:11.527
And I jokingly,

00:22:11.547 --> 00:22:12.827
when we're introducing ourselves, like,

00:22:13.922 --> 00:22:15.344
This is how I alleviated some stress.

00:22:15.403 --> 00:22:15.624
I said,

00:22:16.285 --> 00:22:18.146
I won a contest in a supermarket to

00:22:18.248 --> 00:22:20.790
be on this board, which got some LOLs.

00:22:21.412 --> 00:22:22.532
But at the same token, I was like,

00:22:23.054 --> 00:22:24.555
that feels more plausible than me being

00:22:24.635 --> 00:22:26.377
asked to be here because I'm not

00:22:26.458 --> 00:22:27.019
understanding.

00:22:27.058 --> 00:22:28.400
But how would you...

00:22:28.881 --> 00:22:29.961
What would you say to someone...

00:22:30.762 --> 00:22:32.683
earlier in their career when they've made

00:22:32.723 --> 00:22:34.224
it to a room that they maybe don't

00:22:34.244 --> 00:22:35.885
feel like they belong.

00:22:35.925 --> 00:22:39.367
And I feel like being quiet is the

00:22:39.387 --> 00:22:40.988
defense mechanism because I've used it.

00:22:41.409 --> 00:22:41.669
Right.

00:22:41.709 --> 00:22:43.430
But you're in the room because you were

00:22:43.509 --> 00:22:44.390
asked to be in that room.

00:22:44.410 --> 00:22:45.351
So what would you tell those people?

00:22:45.391 --> 00:22:47.372
Is there tactics or what advice or what

00:22:47.392 --> 00:22:47.711
would you do?

00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:48.901
Yeah.

00:22:48.941 --> 00:22:51.102
So switching the mindset from,

00:22:51.923 --> 00:22:52.883
do I belong here?

00:22:53.304 --> 00:22:55.005
Which is the question that everybody,

00:22:55.265 --> 00:22:55.484
you know,

00:22:55.525 --> 00:22:57.787
at one point in their life and you

00:22:57.826 --> 00:22:59.708
get in that room, you, you immediately,

00:23:00.409 --> 00:23:01.368
I don't belong here.

00:23:01.750 --> 00:23:02.869
So you start to say, you know,

00:23:02.990 --> 00:23:03.691
do I belong here?

00:23:03.730 --> 00:23:04.571
Do I really belong here?

00:23:04.971 --> 00:23:07.614
So switching that phrase from,

00:23:07.814 --> 00:23:08.894
do I belong here too?

00:23:09.335 --> 00:23:09.535
Okay.

00:23:09.615 --> 00:23:11.517
What problem am I here to solve?

00:23:12.737 --> 00:23:15.459
And when you shift the attention from

00:23:15.499 --> 00:23:16.259
yourself,

00:23:16.892 --> 00:23:19.932
to the value that you can bring and

00:23:19.952 --> 00:23:23.134
you focus on the mission of that group,

00:23:23.773 --> 00:23:25.473
not your own self-evaluation,

00:23:25.634 --> 00:23:28.315
that helps the process along.

00:23:28.414 --> 00:23:31.715
So making it more external,

00:23:32.016 --> 00:23:34.676
what value am I here that can bring

00:23:34.717 --> 00:23:36.758
to this whole team or this whole group

00:23:36.798 --> 00:23:37.817
or this problem,

00:23:38.998 --> 00:23:41.398
it shifts that focus from internal.

00:23:41.419 --> 00:23:44.819
How can that be helpful?

00:23:45.430 --> 00:23:45.690
Yeah.

00:23:46.150 --> 00:23:46.410
Yeah.

00:23:46.589 --> 00:23:48.111
Because we can all be helpful in some

00:23:48.131 --> 00:23:48.931
way, shape or form.

00:23:50.151 --> 00:23:52.372
One of the best things that happened to

00:23:52.412 --> 00:23:54.772
me years and years ago,

00:23:55.272 --> 00:23:58.874
I was sitting on a committee for ASHA,

00:23:59.294 --> 00:24:02.714
which I looked around and I went, oh,

00:24:02.734 --> 00:24:04.336
my God, there are.

00:24:05.643 --> 00:24:06.502
bigwigs here.

00:24:06.542 --> 00:24:09.064
There are names that I have only seen

00:24:09.584 --> 00:24:11.125
in journal articles, you know,

00:24:11.605 --> 00:24:12.244
and here I am,

00:24:12.285 --> 00:24:15.066
and I clearly got in the wrong room.

00:24:15.125 --> 00:24:16.205
I clearly took a wrong turn.

00:24:17.486 --> 00:24:19.227
And so I was quiet for most of

00:24:19.267 --> 00:24:19.646
the meeting,

00:24:19.666 --> 00:24:20.707
and it was a three-day meeting.

00:24:21.948 --> 00:24:25.229
And I spoke up one time, maybe two,

00:24:26.769 --> 00:24:30.170
and the co-leader of this meeting pulled

00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:31.769
me aside afterwards and said,

00:24:32.990 --> 00:24:33.570
that was

00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:37.561
the best comment out of the entire

00:24:37.602 --> 00:24:37.903
meeting.

00:24:38.242 --> 00:24:40.805
It was the most valuable comment that we

00:24:40.825 --> 00:24:41.586
took away from it.

00:24:42.105 --> 00:24:43.227
And I looked at him and I went,

00:24:43.768 --> 00:24:44.528
oh, thanks,

00:24:44.548 --> 00:24:45.569
that was nice of you to say.

00:24:45.589 --> 00:24:46.450
And he said, no,

00:24:46.490 --> 00:24:48.251
I need you to say things more.

00:24:49.373 --> 00:24:50.554
And it was one of those things that

00:24:50.594 --> 00:24:50.994
I just went,

00:24:51.375 --> 00:24:54.397
my voice actually does have purpose.

00:24:56.020 --> 00:24:59.301
But I needed to just hear that that

00:24:59.362 --> 00:25:02.064
was one thing was okay and it helped

00:25:02.144 --> 00:25:02.263
me.

00:25:02.324 --> 00:25:04.084
But if I would have just been able

00:25:04.124 --> 00:25:05.765
to say it to myself rather than have

00:25:05.805 --> 00:25:06.945
somebody else say it to me,

00:25:07.346 --> 00:25:08.165
I would have said a lot more in

00:25:08.185 --> 00:25:09.346
that meeting from the get-go.

00:25:09.666 --> 00:25:10.067
Yeah.

00:25:10.126 --> 00:25:12.607
And the room might have lost because you

00:25:12.627 --> 00:25:14.469
were quiet for so much out of three

00:25:14.489 --> 00:25:14.949
days.

00:25:15.429 --> 00:25:16.089
Right.

00:25:16.109 --> 00:25:16.470
Exactly.

00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:17.730
A lot of times the person who speaks,

00:25:17.769 --> 00:25:19.131
this is coming from me who talks a

00:25:19.171 --> 00:25:19.371
lot.

00:25:20.423 --> 00:25:22.105
A lot of times it's not the number

00:25:22.144 --> 00:25:22.705
of words.

00:25:22.865 --> 00:25:23.586
Most of the time,

00:25:23.625 --> 00:25:24.467
not the number of words.

00:25:24.507 --> 00:25:25.847
It's the right words at the right time

00:25:25.867 --> 00:25:26.667
for the right reason.

00:25:27.088 --> 00:25:27.969
Exactly.

00:25:27.989 --> 00:25:28.930
You ready for your parting shot?

00:25:28.950 --> 00:25:31.652
I am.

00:25:32.172 --> 00:25:33.292
This is the parting shot.

00:25:33.853 --> 00:25:35.713
One last mic drop moment.

00:25:35.934 --> 00:25:36.734
No pressure.

00:25:37.195 --> 00:25:39.297
Just your legacy on the line.

00:25:40.708 --> 00:25:42.028
right parting shot brought to you by our

00:25:42.068 --> 00:25:44.651
friends at us physical therapy we

00:25:44.691 --> 00:25:46.712
partnered with clinic owners who want to

00:25:46.732 --> 00:25:48.273
grow without losing their identity that's

00:25:48.294 --> 00:25:50.375
what they do at usph you stay local

00:25:50.395 --> 00:25:52.798
and in control while getting the resources

00:25:52.837 --> 00:25:55.220
and mentorship of a national network find

00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:57.662
them online at usph.com and that's

00:25:57.823 --> 00:26:00.444
usph.com so i'll throw you a question if

00:26:00.464 --> 00:26:02.006
a clinician listening right now feels like

00:26:02.026 --> 00:26:04.268
they don't belong in leadership but

00:26:04.307 --> 00:26:06.009
they're there that's the setting

00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:08.391
what would you want them to remember not

00:26:08.471 --> 00:26:10.810
do but remember to think of to hold

00:26:11.090 --> 00:26:12.731
on to what would you give them to

00:26:12.751 --> 00:26:19.713
to grab onto everybody has been at a

00:26:19.794 --> 00:26:22.434
starting point at some point nobody

00:26:23.756 --> 00:26:26.957
magically was birthed and then stepped

00:26:26.997 --> 00:26:30.738
into a leadership role so everyone has had

00:26:30.917 --> 00:26:33.439
a first moment a first

00:26:34.444 --> 00:26:34.644
you know,

00:26:35.026 --> 00:26:36.928
leadership position in a committee,

00:26:37.448 --> 00:26:40.511
a first leadership position in a company,

00:26:42.173 --> 00:26:43.394
a first time having a student,

00:26:43.455 --> 00:26:46.659
a first whatever, everybody's been there,

00:26:46.798 --> 00:26:49.021
everybody's been where you are right now,

00:26:50.222 --> 00:26:52.266
and nobody has died

00:26:55.163 --> 00:26:57.486
So you will survive.

00:26:57.726 --> 00:27:00.228
You will get through it.

00:27:00.307 --> 00:27:01.789
And you just, you know,

00:27:02.009 --> 00:27:04.272
if you keep in mind the fact that

00:27:05.012 --> 00:27:07.895
you're not alone and you deserve to be

00:27:07.915 --> 00:27:08.457
where you are.

00:27:09.864 --> 00:27:10.223
Perfect.

00:27:10.884 --> 00:27:12.846
Katie, thanks for walking us through this.

00:27:13.125 --> 00:27:14.047
I think we could have the same

00:27:14.086 --> 00:27:17.229
conversation in six months and still be

00:27:17.269 --> 00:27:20.029
valuable because I think sometimes you,

00:27:20.089 --> 00:27:21.111
well, I don't know.

00:27:21.151 --> 00:27:22.172
Maybe we never outgrow this,

00:27:22.192 --> 00:27:23.271
but as long as you can understand that

00:27:23.291 --> 00:27:24.292
it's there and how to use it and

00:27:24.313 --> 00:27:25.074
how to lean into it,

00:27:25.153 --> 00:27:26.815
I think it just affects us less.

00:27:26.835 --> 00:27:29.256
Exactly.

00:27:29.276 --> 00:27:30.356
Katie Holterman, thanks for stopping by.

00:27:30.376 --> 00:27:30.696
I appreciate it.

00:27:30.717 --> 00:27:31.416
Thank you so much.

00:27:33.378 --> 00:27:34.460
That's it for this one,

00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:36.401
but we're just getting warmed up.

00:27:36.861 --> 00:27:38.781
Smash follow, send it to a friend,

00:27:39.002 --> 00:27:40.663
or crank up the next episode.

00:27:41.183 --> 00:27:42.105
Want to go deeper?

00:27:42.545 --> 00:27:46.586
Hit us at pgpinecast.com or find us on

00:27:46.626 --> 00:27:49.169
YouTube and socials at pgpinecast.

00:27:49.588 --> 00:27:51.871
And legally, none of this was advice.

00:27:51.951 --> 00:27:53.711
It's for entertainment purposes only.

00:27:53.751 --> 00:27:54.291
Bullshit!

00:27:55.353 --> 00:27:55.932
See, Keith?

00:27:56.153 --> 00:27:57.213
We read the script.

00:27:57.513 --> 00:27:58.194
Happy now?