Mastering Paid Ads for Physical Therapy: Will Boyd on What Works Now

0:20 You know it's going to be a good show when I press the intro twice by accident. That's when it's going to be a good show. Good morning to you guys. Got a pretty packed show. I'm pretty excited for this one. Guys, how you doing? Awesome. Beautiful day. Banger for you. Special guest. We haven't done this a ton, but I feel like when we do, it adds a little extra element, right? Because we like to step on each other's toes, and we're good at that. But then we bring an extra person in to step on our toes, and it's even better because we get to fawn all over that person. A banger for you. Will Boyd in the house. Going to dive headfirst into the wild world of paid ads. I feel like... everybody's a guru if you ask them you can do it right you can do it wrong you could just blow a bunch of money and and aim it's it's simple not easy so let's bring somebody in who who does it regularly uh ladies and gentlemen welcome to the uh the show will boyd will boyd on the program there he is hey guys I feel like a good morning long time listener first time caller There we go.

1:18 We love it when people get the cheesy cliches that Jimmy loves. Will, you do and you've been doing a lot of things. When we were in PT school, I believe at the same time, I graduated in sixteen. And I just remember I feel like that was like the I don't know, it felt like it was the digital Wild West of PT because. This went from people saying you should never or should always and those never and always things sort of went away. Like never start your own practice at a PT school. And that was dissolving. And this whole online thing was a fad and then not so much. So like give people the thirty thousand foot view because that was nine and a half nine years ago or so.

1:59 Yeah, Teal, you know, the long story short is just like you, Jimmy, I was in PT school. I actually knew of you, Jimmy, because you were the OG podcaster in the PT space. There might have been somebody before, but you were the one who took it to the next level. uh really gave me an inspiration I started a blog and I made it two posts in and was like I I hate writing this is taking it was pretty chat gbt like now yeah yeah but I was like man and I didn't feel like an expert and I love that you were interviewing people that seems like a great format so I jumped on that train we started a podcast called the nobody's podcast back in the day uh and that you know got us into this world of meeting people like tony and dave back when uh you know twitter was really the main place I knew how to connect with pts um the same as you graduated in school here in pittsburgh and um from pt school and then treated for a year and a half but during that time um I you know you guys run practice well tony and dave in particular run practices I worked at a private practice and had rotations there.

3:03 And I just watched the practice owner all day. His thing was, we got to get more new patients in the door. We got to get more new patients in the doors. And this was when I was on that rotation. And he would take me to BNI meetings. We would go to community events. We do all these things that were great. And, you know, I was just like, Hey man, do you, silly question. Do you ever use the internet to get patients? And he's like, ah, it doesn't, doesn't work. Love it. Love it. Doesn't work. It doesn't work. And I was like, that seems really interesting. Cause like I found this place by going on Google and typing practices near me, you know, to like find it. And so I was like, that, that seems very contradictory. And um you know the the uh competitor in me was like that seems dumb I'm gonna try to prove that wrong and I couldn't get buy-in from that but I you know we were in a group of uh greg todd shout out to greg todd way back in the day had a online entrepreneur group.

3:55 And we jumped in there and a lot of people starting their own practices. And I got some, you know, I convinced someone to let me spend like a hundred bucks of my own money to run some traffic for them to see if I could get patients in the door. And sure enough, you can get patients from the internet. It's not as easy as it sounds, but you could do it. And I, from then on, I was like, oh man. And that person was, hey, can I keep paying you? yes the answer to that is always yes the answer was yes and it was a lot more than I was going to make per hour as a physical therapist and I just had a light bulb moment of like What do I what am I really interested right now? Is it is it great patient care or is it securing kind of my financial? I had one hundred fifty thousand dollars doing loan debt. I'm sure a lot of listeners out there, too.

4:36 And I thought, what am I more concerned about being a great practitioner or getting into a good financial position? And I just kind of made the pivot there. And so we create a marketing agency. We start working with small practice owners. We learned that small practice owners don't have the, you know, two thousand dollar a month budget. And so we realized, OK, we We can work with some clients, but really the best we do is to train people in-house, turn it into a coaching program like you see. And then we didn't love it. Honestly, we just had a moment where I think a great one is Chris Miller, for example. I've been following his post to you about what's going on. And kind of a similar moment where it's like we had success on the outside and inside things were going fine.

5:17 It's just like we didn't love the model. We didn't love what we were. We also learned that the problem that we were fixing that we were setting out to solve, which was getting new patients in the door was we were working with a lot of practice owners who had sales issues, had front desk issues, had retention issues. So we could drive people to them, but if, but if we weren't able to help train them to solve those next three or four problems, our retention would just go, you know, plummet. And so we realized we're not solving a Legion issue business. We're a, we're a full on, that's where you see like Joey, for example, with what he's doing, it's, it's full on and it's got to be and we were realizing that back then and the thing that alex loved the most my business partner he just loved talking about finances and it turned out a lot of our practice owner clients didn't know a lot about finances go figure it's not like you guys know you start business no one makes you go to a business finance class and so we started training people on the financial side and over the last three years that's all we've been doing is helping not just pt practices but any kind of business owner out there usually doing, you know, like a couple hundred thousand a year in revenue up to, we've got clients doing thirty, forty million dollars a year doing their kind of financial coaching and fractional CFO work for them.

6:27 So that's where we've gone and that's where I'm at today. But to say all that is I head up our marketing and advertising and sales side of the company. And so we spend anywhere from forty five thousand a month up to sixty thousand dollars a month on paid advertising every single month. All right. I've got I've got one question before Dave goes tactical. you went from a clinical degree to a clinical role to a non-clinical role I did the same thing did you face or do you still face like guilt on that decision and I asked this for a friend and that friend is me I I did in the beginning and then honestly like the financial side just know if I just explained it to someone the financial uh difference it was like oh yeah that makes sense right like it but yes internally there's some guilt I I still think like I keep my license and honestly I feel the most guilty about keeping my license so I feel more guilty if someone's like hey man can you I want to come over can you like treat my shoulder that's when I feel the most guilty where I'm like technically I can.

7:31 Am I the person you want me to? Like, you're better off driving four hours to go see Tony and, you know, outside Dayton. Yeah, definitely in the beginning. And now, you know, I think I've just kind of come to a peace with like, Everyone's got, you know, as long as you find like the value that you wanna bring and you're happy with it, things are gonna work out. So, but yes, to answer your question, there's still hints of that. Yeah. Yeah. All right, Dave, you were excited for this one. You're firing up the group chat. You were like, I got questions. Will's got answers. Of course, of course. Where do we start? Well, I mean, real quick, I'm just so pumped to have Will on here going from the Nobody's podcast where I think you guys were being like super humble and you're still humble, but like massive success.

8:14 And I love to see what you and Alex are building with CEO Finance Academy. awesome to hear about into kind of following your progress. But at the same time, you're still running Facebook ads or paid ads for practice owners? Is it? Are you mostly just doing the pelvic floor conditions, pelvic floor Facebook ads? Are you doing ads for outpatient ortho practices? Like what's the conditions for the practice and like different types of practices? Yeah, so for full context, I probably have seven consulting done for you, kind of advertising clients that I've kept for a long time. But we do outpatient ortho, subpelvic floor, and we can get into it. But kind of for ortho side, we're doing a little bit more of the – offers for modality type stuff, which has been working really well to get people in the door.

9:05 So we can go into kind of what that's been like. But yeah, seeing everything, I don't do a ton of, I still have somebody who does geriatric kind of in-home or some mobile PT stuff. So still see all of it. If you wanted to go like big volume, obviously Joey's the guy, Joey and Robbie are the guys on like big volume, but I still have great insight into like some niche stuff and what we're doing. Yeah, and Tony has got the Shockwave and some other modalities and some other technology and equipment. So what do you see working right now? Is it specifically certain headlines, certain hooks? I always like to nerd out on what's actually working. So images instead of video ads on Facebook or Meta.

9:49 Is it mostly, you know, Facebook and Instagram? Are you are you doing some, you know, some Google ads? But for the most part, like just curious, like what's actually working? I've had so I've had different folks and I don't know if I've heard it's the New York City area. Like just I've had certain marketers and folks take different stabs at it. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But overall, it's like it's a loss every time in terms of the total spend. And it has been like the most was like ten K. last year or the year before or something where we get like one patient, you know, that pays out of pocket or has out of network insurance. So it's, it's, I need to maybe use you. Maybe I need to find someone else or Joey or Robbie or whatever. Maybe they're targeting is off or whatever.

10:29 But what do you see working right now? Like what specifically? Yeah, I think so. A couple of things before we get into tactics, because I do think there are some things that matter a lot, because I can just say, hey, do these headlines and do this, and you'll still not have success. And I think that's a really big thing here. I will say, Dave, man, I have tried New York City at least ten times for different practices in New York City, not a single one has been profitable. And so now, at this point, I've just told folks in New York City, like, I'm not the guy to help you. I'm not saying it can't be doable, by no means the end all be all, but man, it is just, it's so competitive. It's so... The CPM is more expensive than most other metros.

11:12 And even when you're setting parameters, like you can set where people live and where you're geographically targeting, it's so transient with commuters that you might get someone who sees that. And you can do like people only live here, but they're restricting that more and more now. So you get somebody who's maybe lives in Queens, but works in Staten Island. I don't know. Right. And they see the ad when they're in Staten Island. And it's like, hey, come in. I live in Queens. And you're like, oh, you're wasting my money on these leads. It's like that. only get so granular on on you know the the geofencing side of that and so um I've just found that uh uh it's it's it's just for your sake it's a super tough market on the facebook side and I just I'd have lower expectations but to get into tactics and what's working biggest thing is uh do you know what your sales process is and how are you putting people in your sales process and I say that because you get people who are like can you send me images can you send me videos can you send me headlines And I can.

12:03 But if you set it up to just run a campaign that's like, I just want people to see it, guess what? It's not going to turn into people coming into your door. The algorithms are so smart that if you don't tell it what you want, it's going to give you whatever you tell it. So if you say, I want impressions, it's going to give you incredible impressions. And you're going to go, why didn't get any patients from it? You didn't tell Facebook that you wanted to get patients from it. And so this is where the tactical side, I think, is it's so worth if you're going to go spend money on this. that you do learn a little bit about the foundations of it to understand how to get the best out of it because if you don't you can go have chat gpt make five thousand different images all the coolest videos I've got a guy who you know spent I don't even know how much it had to be thousands of dollars on a great tv commercial style video I want to put it on facebook and and it's so great spend all this money it's going to bring people in the door and I just told him I was like I can't, I won't put money in.

12:58 You can do it on your own. I won't put money into this because it won't work. Like it's not the right platform for something like this. It doesn't have a call to action of where you want to send someone into your sales process. So it looks great. You're getting a lot of people going, that was a great video. And I said, do you want people to like your video or do you want patients in the door? Difference. There's a difference there. There's a psychology difference there. Do you want to be liked or do you want to make money? Yeah, to your point, Jimmy. So Dave, I guess before we get into tactics and headlines, I think the one thing is before I say all that, because I've had this happen before where someone goes, you told me I could do these headlines and I could I could write this ad copy and it didn't work. And it's like, well, do you have the technical mechanics down for this to even possibly work?

13:40 Right. And I know, Dave, you're up on that. But I think if someone's listening and they're not aware of that, you're going to go and set a you know, someone might go and said, I spent. you know, a thousand dollars this month on Facebook ads. And I set it to link clicks and I got a lot of clicks. I didn't get any, I didn't get any patients. I said, well, yeah, you told Facebook you wanted link clicks. Facebook's gonna go get you link clicks. They're not gonna go get you actual people in the door. And if you're listening, is there a setting to get patients? There's not a setting to get patients, but there's like an opt-in to track for someone to give you their name, email, phone number, book in, right? There's nuances to that. So Dave, we can get into the technical piece. I just think if someone's listening to this, It is absolutely worth going and spending a day on YouTube.

14:20 Trust me, for your budget, it is worth spending a day on YouTube. How do I run a lead form campaign? How do I run a conversion campaign on Facebook? Because if you don't, it really doesn't matter. I mean, it can matter and it will matter. Obviously, if you just say absolutely nonsense, it's going to matter. But in terms of getting the outcome that you want, You can be the best copywriter. You can be the best whatever. The algorithms are so intelligent. You've probably seen this, Dave, on Google, right? If you just do link clicks, I get a bunch of link clicks. But if you start optimizing for phone calls, guess what? You start getting phone calls. The algorithms start looking for people who have a history of doing these activities. And so before you get into headlines and copy, you know, which I love all that stuff, I just see ninety plus percent of people fail because they don't even do the back end little technical pieces that set you up for those things to work.

15:11 Then paid ads don't work. Paid ads don't work. Exactly. Then you air quote it and paid ads don't work. Yeah. So Dave, I know I didn't answer your question directly. I just want to give a caveat there. No, no, no, no, no. Of course it needs to be prefaced with that for sure. I think like the last couple of Facebook campaigns we had, we were optimizing just like, I think similar to the, the Google campaigns we run, like either for, I think for the most part conversions or phone calls, or in some cases, like for us, the conversion would, depending on the, uh, the, even on the Google ads, the conversion is either they actually, they converted into a phone call or the conversion was they went to our website and they filled out a lead form. So it's still a lead. Like we just, we want leads, right? We want lead, we want lead flow, we want lead volume.

15:51 And so we're okay if it's, sometimes it's a phone call, sometimes it's a website form opt-in or form fill or whatever. But yeah, those things certainly make sense. So in terms of like what else you're seeing or things that are surprising or flopping or whatever, like where do you want to take it from here? yeah so what we've been seeing working really well I've got a couple people doing this one guy in arizona um we're running uh shockwave ads so uh running ads to uh shockwave for body specific uh part so uh we've got shockwave going for uh tennis elbow shockwave for uh plantar fasciitis and shockwave for knee pain and then so that's been going really well.

16:32 Literally it's just images of a practitioner with the shockwave wand over the body part. And that's been working. I've tested that against a lot of different stuff. And it's just a picture of the, I think what, what it does for people is, and I, and I try to stress this to folks. I, you know, I'm a come from a fan of like, what do I believe in rehab, which is like, obviously exercise getting better, like mobility sizing. I think about what do I want as a, as a patient? I don't want to do any of that. I want someone to just make me feel better. Right. And so I think of like, do I know what I need to do? Right. But it's like, what do I want? If someone's like, hey, would you rather have this be fixed passively or not? It's just the same as us. Would you rather make income passively or actively?

17:14 Well, I'd rather pass it. Right. It's like, cool. Well, hey, let me draw you in with like what's possible down the road for this. You know, it's like, hey, what's the thing that piques their interest? It's really all we're doing is saying, hey, shockwave is just a medium. And it's a it's a it's I don't say it's a gimmick because it can work, but it's a it's a it's a. a magnet, right, that catches your eyes and goes, oh, that's new, I don't know what that is. Oh, maybe that's the fix, right? And really what we're doing is getting people to say, oh, I have knee pain, or hey, I have plantar fasciitis. What is this new thing that might be able to help me with that? And I always joke, if it were me and I had to start a practice tomorrow, I'd start an E-STEM practice or a shockwave practice that just happens to have physical therapy. Because I know I could acquire patients really fast and then help talk to them, get to build those relationships.

17:54 It would just be a break even front end magnet to get people into the door to do that. And I know that goes against a lot of the like what's Ethical, not ethical or, you know, well, is that evidence based practice? And again, it's the difference between business and, you know, what's the right treatment plan for someone? And I just look at for me, if what I know on the front end side of if I had to go in and scale something fast, it would be through modalities from the sense of I would draw people in with modalities because it gets people interested. They're hooked on. Now, you might say that's not my ideal patient. Different story. Totally, totally could believe that. But that's something to think about. Not the end all be all, but that's the route I would go.

18:36 So for context, just to give you an idea, we get leads for about for a ninety seven dollar shockwave treatment session. Right. We get leads for about forty five to fifty bucks. About one out of three comes in. So we lose about fifty dollars on that. So it costs about one hundred fifty dollars. Get them in the door. But they pay ninety seven for the shockwave treatment. treatment and then the clinic it depends on the clinic in terms of upsell rate but you know we're looking at usually one out of three if it's cash one out of three ends up in a sort of a cash plan if it's uh like insurance and it's usually closer to one out of one you know one out of two one point one five that end up converting into a plan of care and so that becomes kind of our break even uh Technically, it's a loss leader, but it's really a kind of break even if you look at all things considered.

19:21 So that's been working really well on that front. So if you're ortho and you have shockwave or you have Graston or Easton or something like putting that image up, again, though, you can do all that if you don't have the technical background to tell them what you want, which is a lead to get an email phone number. You just get a lot of people going, this looks cool and go, hey. And you go, hey, I don't have any patients from it, and it doesn't work. So you can have all the cool images. I will say, historically, what's honestly worked the best, and this just blows people's mind, whatever you're advertising, in my time, historically, the number one thing, and Joey and I are still in some ad accounts at the same time, and I still see some of my old ads from three years ago running, which just blows my mind.

20:01 It's literally a color background, so just the Facebook square. color like purple or whatever and it just says ninety seven dollar or whatever the offer is right just literally written out for people with this who live in this area and highest uh like return on investment are just the dumbest You can go to all the chat GPT stuff, all the crazy stuff. I still have an ad that's been running for four and a half years for pelvic floor that just says, a ninety seven dollar pelvic floor assessment for women in blank area who are dealing with leakage, incontinence and pain with intercourse or pain with intimacy.

20:42 Right. Four and a half years still driving in over, you know, for six hundred dollars a month, still driving in over like seventy leads a month and cranking away. So just because he can test all different creators, all the stuff, sometimes it's just the dumbest, simplest thing that that can do the best. So, Dave, that's that's what's working on the ortho shock wave side. I still think that's one of the best plays if you have that and you and it goes with your know company values in the sense of like if you're like we're all sports performance we don't believe in that don't you know obviously I would never encourage someone to go against kind of like what your brand image is and what you want to be but if you were just hey I just need more patients in the door and I don't really care that's what I'll do I can hear the evidence-based practice clinicians saying but it's not evidence-based and I would say uh it's hard to provide evidence-based practice if no one's in your clinic right and then also Keep it simple, stupid, right?

21:40 What do you do? We buy houses, as in, take cash, insert town, right? Like, sometimes we can be our own worst enemy and overthink this thing. There's so many people who would come in when I was in radio with all these ornate ideas for ads, especially radio ads, one-dimensional. And it was always, well, I shouldn't say always. Most of the time, it was the simplest thing that cut through. Great taste, less filling. Miller Lite, the end. What else you got, Dave? Yeah, we'll hear. Tony, any thoughts, any feedback on the shockwave ads? I mean, he's describing your offer. I know, I know shockwave, Matt duro and the team over there. I know they've I thought they used to say they would pitch like, you know, make it a forty nine dollar offer.

22:23 But but Tony, any questions, any any feedback for Will? The thing I would love to get, since you're the finance guy, Will, how do you help clinicians? I mean, I come from this very conservative, I can't spend money, I've got to save everything. I'd rather save a hundred bucks than earn a hundred bucks. Yeah. how do you help clinicians rationalize okay whatever the the equipment is that's a big expense to say I'm gonna buy this and you're the first person outside of me that I've heard say look if I was starting a practice today I would buy a piece of this technology and it would be my full business it's a business in a box that I'm buying and I build everything around shockwave nufit biodex whatever it is that I'm getting How do you help them with the financial and the emotional aspect of I'm going to invest this huge amount of money and I'm going to have to pay for ads on top of it.

23:17 But it's going to give me the long term growth and the revenue I need on the other side. Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know, I think I'd say, well, you're in business, so you're gonna have to get used to risk, right? Like that's just a part of the game and it sucks, right? Like that's, if it were easy and it were for risk averse people, we'd have many more business owners, right? And so, but that being said, I think to your point though, Tony, it's, if we look at it in like stages. So for Alex and I, like we didn't start spending fifty thousand dollars on advertising a month right out the gate. We started with five hundred and a thousand. Right. And you get better with what budget you have to start.

23:57 And so for that case, I would say, like, don't go buy the new fit right away. Don't go buy the whatever the most expensive thing is right away. Like if it's about getting people in the door through the modality side, you know, what can you afford? Like, I don't know. I don't know how much a shockwave is or, you know, but Graston tools aren't crazy expensive you know relative to rice they're really expensive but relative to like a new fit not that expensive and you know hey like uh could you start there right and like and dial in your sales process how effective are you getting uh talking with those initial people indoors so someone like you tony it's like hey that's less of a risk you know how to talk to people you know how to uh you know what your sales process is so if someone's like I'm gonna open a clinic and this is my plan I'd be like well I hope you have investing and funding because that's a lot of risk on a lot of things that you don't know on a holistic scale if they're going to work or not.

24:44 Whereas if you've been proven what you're doing and you slowly go into that, that's what you're going to do. You can ease your way into that and you can grow into that, which goes against a lot of people, which is I don't want to be patient. We got to have patience in this. Tony, I think on that end, It's like, well, I would say maybe if that's the way that you start, it's like, hey, start with friends and family, save your money, save the cash. So that way you can hedge your bet on these things and say, hey, I might not get a return on this new fit for three months, but I've saved up, you know, three thousand dollars a month for the last six months. And I can I can ride that out until it starts to become profitable.

25:28 But how well do we convert people in general? How many leads do we get in general? And if you don't know those things and you don't track those things, then I mean, you're just gambling really, which is fine. I got, you know, there's a whole industry of gambling, but like probably not the way you want to do it if you're running the business. So that's the way we think about it. I think one of the interesting things on this, though, that never gets discussed is the smart use of leverage. When I buy a physical product, something that has a tangible value, I can leverage credit. I can borrow money for it. Now we get into, okay, what's the interest rate? What kind of return can I expect? If I get an eighty thousand dollar piece of equipment that I'm spending a thousand dollars a month on, you know, I'm leveraging other people's money correctly to scale and grow the business.

26:20 And I can put a dollar amount return on that investment. Whereas if I'm just trying to do everything on a bootstrap budget, I don't have leverage. I don't have other financial means to do this. It's really hard. It's way harder, I think, than to invest. like you said, leverage those business philosophies appropriately. I just, I think it's awesome. I love hearing this. So, but I want to turn it back to Dave and see what's next. Well, I got a question for you, Tony, if that's right. Cause I'm in this league. I watch every day. I'm always curious, keeping up with you guys. I love the, so many times I side with Dave on the, like, don't go the digital route side. It's like, been there done that so many times and you don't make any money while you get there but I also understand tony long term it's like yeah like so I'm super fascinated to be in this and I love jimmy in the middle who's just like he just knows that he knows that he knows the little buttons to push for each of you to get you guys but like so tony you've been posting a ton on your facebook profile or your uh your business page right and it's growing right and I know you put a ton of time into it where do you see that going because I'm always like I watch and I see and I'm fascinated I'm like where's this going because I see the bajillions or trillions of views and I think like hey like are you making money off that like how's that working like what's going on with that um because I love the content in my mind like as the the the content creator in me is like this is awesome like I love it we're getting out there the business owner in me is like I don't know where it's headed.

27:49 And I guess I'm curious for you, like, and maybe it's a playground, but I'm just curious to learn more. Yeah. Where are you headed with that? It's a playground, a hundred percent. And it's one of those things for listeners, for context, you know, I had put all my, my time into the YouTube basket. I did everything for YouTube. I've got thousands and thousands of YouTube videos. And then around October of two thousand twenty four, I was like, I need to get on this TikTok, Instagram. By accident, I didn't even realize when I posted something to Instagram, which I hadn't done for like three years, it kicks over to Facebook business page. All of a sudden, I got five hundred thousand views on an organic post on Facebook business page. I'm like, oh, maybe I'll do something with this.

28:30 and this is just my mode like forever I plant seeds I see what happens you guys saw I shared the the screenshots my facebook groups of you know whatever tens of thousands of people in it and I had no idea when I started I'm still not monetizing and taking advantage I just love doing this stuff so with the Facebook business page because it gained traction kind of accidentally. I was like, well, let me focus a little more time on this. I am playing with it. It went from, I think, five thousand followers to sixteen thousand pretty quickly. It's it's averaging over a million views a month. And this last month was like one point eight million views.

29:12 I'm trying a long form content on there, but everything is still organic. I still don't understand how to take something that is proven effective organically and turn it into something that actually puts money in my pocket. I'll do anything. I don't care. But it is still a playground that is starting to show signs of maybe something that could be more. I just don't know what to do with it. And Dave, how much does that drive you nuts? It drives me nuts. But at the same time, we all know Tony has one of the most creative minds. For me, I'll speak about myself. I think Tony has one of the most creative minds of anyone that I probably know.

29:53 And when he posts these insightful questions, he puts out these questions to us or the internet and therapists at large on LinkedIn originally or Facebook at the same time. It's super fascinating to follow. And I do feel the same way, Will. It's like... Like, what is this for? There's got to be something. Here's something, Will, maybe, is when people sign up for Tony's Learn Medicare Billing course at LearnMedicareBilling.com, people convert probably way higher than like any other course or academy or program or whatever. And Tony is being so hospitable and nice with keeping it like still five hundred bucks or whatever.

30:37 It should be two to five grand, ten grand. It's just massive value. And people convert. And then when people ask, like in these different groups on Facebook, like billing, like Medicare billing questions and stuff, Like, people will post, like, oh, you should check out Tony Meritato's Learn Medicare billing course. Like, it's awesome. And people will just, like, organically and naturally mention it. Right. And then those people then go and convert easily, and Tony's not even running paid ads to it. So maybe, Will, do you think that when Tony is posting these very – neutral, insightful, clever questions? Should there be a call to action at the bottom or be like, hey, this post is sponsored by or powered by LearnMedicareBilling.com or drop a link of the course in the first comment or something?

31:25 I feel like he needs to juice it a little bit, but then maybe that takes away the mystique of his clever, insightful questions. What do you think, Will? Yeah, I think so. Hopefully it's a safe space. I'll just tell you what I see from the outside. Like if that's, if that's cool. So I feel like, and this is, if you're watching, you know, if you're a listener, I think, you know, I would say all of us here are a little bit more experienced, like further along in your business journey, you know, than, than, you know, say someone who's starting out and you're watching this, right. The way I see with Tony now is at the beginning, I was like, how does he do all these things? There's all this stuff. And then, you know, I realized Tony's, so far along in his journey that from the outside tony's what it looks like is like tony's got his clinic that kind of runs with or without him I know recently you've been jumping back in but and so I think from a like a I could be guessing financial stability point tony's at a place where he can play and he can just it's just all fun right where dave you and I and jimmy I you know I don't know where you're at jimmy with this but like it's like hey I got it I got to secure my financial and focus is so important right now.

32:26 Like in order to do that, like when someone comes to me and they're like, well, I think I might have a wait list. I need to open up digital products. And I go, no, you need to learn how to run a business and you need to scale. Like you got to figure that out. And they go, I don't want to. And I go, well, just like Tony mentioned, it was two days ago. I think as well, the valley is between, you can do it with one person and you can be profitable or you got to get to five. your choice but don't but don't go the digital like the digital route's not going to get you in terms of like the the cash flow that you really want or become a content creator I would just say don't you know my advice would be if you're in this place where you want to get financial security like you don't do both like there are exceptions or it's always going to be exceptions vast majority of people it's not going to work and so that's where again it comes back to like what's the end goal and I think for this dave with like tony it's like Do you want to make it a business or do you want it to stay up on side project?

33:13 Because if we drive traffic to this and we can get people there and sign up, it's going to turn into a business really fast of like, right now, think about quality of care. Can you maintain that quality with a hundred signups every time versus twenty? Right. And what if it gets to two hundred? And how do we do that? And so I think, Dave, that's the thing where I watch because I'm with you. I'm always like. God, there's so much opportunity here when I watch what Tony is doing. And I'm like, where's it going? I got a crazy close. Like, Tony, have you ever I mean, this is just my original idea that I'm just having right now live. Have you ever thought about converting your courses into consulting services by by chance? Says Christian in the live stream, who's, by the way, a CEO of of staff med health partners.

33:56 Dude's got ten thousand followers on LinkedIn. Weird. Getting attention leads to stuff. So have you ever thought about doing something like that? You've done this before. Yeah, and I'm not interested in going that route. I don't want to be the consultant or the coach or those things right now. And to Will's point, I think you have to. We all have to understand ourselves, understand our personalities, understand our matrix. I've got friends that make way more money than me, and they're no happier than me. There's a threshold. You need to make enough money. You need to feel safe. You need to feel comfortable. And I've always been one of those people that even in competition, this will drive Dave crazy.

34:38 I was in martial arts. I was a boxer. I did shoot wrestling and Muay Thai fighting. I never got to the point where I wanted to like, quote, finish the other person. I wanted them to do well, even though they were trying to punch me in the face as hard as they could. I wanted to win, but I didn't want to like destroy the other person. Yeah. And if I got second, it was like, OK, I did pretty good. You know, so like that's my nature. Now, my wife is one hundred percent the other direction. She will just drive you into the ground. She she played basketball at Wheeling Jesuit and played sports her whole life. She wants to win and win decisively.

35:19 So with that being in my nature, I'm kind of the same way. Like, all right, I got enough money in the bank account. I can pay my bills. My kids are taken care of. Like, we're comfortable. I don't need a bigger house, a newer car. I like what I've got. Now I just want to enjoy, like, play with these things, see what works. And truly, my passion is if I put something that is working and successful, I want to show other people how they can do it also for themselves. I don't need to grow my business or do those things. I want to be the testing ground that other people can learn from, but I don't want to be the coach or the advisor. I don't want the stress and pressure of those kinds of responsibilities. Yeah. Tony is secretly Canadian because he just loves ties.

36:00 He's just okay with kind. But we're mentioning that. I was talking about this the other day. I've still got the back of the envelope thing. Will, have you ever heard of six types of working genius? It's just another one of these like personality things. It's pretty cool. It's a quick read. It's not so much about personality. It's more about what Tony's talking about, which is like they essentially said there's six types of tasks. Yeah. Right. And each of us are good at two. We're OK at two and we're really off awful at two. But what it means in terms of it's not skill, it's does it give you energy? Does it suck energy out of you or is it meh? I could do it if I have to. And looking at Tony, he's like self-aware enough to know that ain't it. Like so someone like like someone like Claudia Christian, sorry, coming in and saying this Christian's probably right.

36:47 Tony could do it. Tony self-aware enough feeling if I did that, six months in I'd be miserable to do it so tony is wise enough to know uh self-aware enough to know uh himself I am just getting to the self-awareness part and I'm writing I'm writing them down and figuring out but then the funny part is when you figure out your own dna you can look back at all the things that didn't work and you're like well duh like of course then you'd give that test the people you work with and you find people who are not like you and then you like you link up like lego blocks And it's because I've been on the other side of that. I've overcommitted so many times in my fifty years of life. Right. And then I feel guilty and then I've let people down and then I've dropped the ball that I finally learned.

37:31 I'm just not going to do that. You know, there's nothing on that side. Will, question for you. So I talked to you, gosh, this was probably a couple of years ago now. And I was blown away because you said you guys pretty much just stopped all organic stuff. You stopped going on interviews. You stopped doing all these other things. So this is a huge treat to have you here today. and you just went to paid ads um some of the content I'm seeing these days is the combination we need the paid ad to get the message in front of the consumer then what happens is the consumer goes and looks for the organic content to better understand the service provider, what they're doing, who they are, what the culture is.

38:16 What can you speak to that about in regards to needing both the paid and the organic? Yeah, that's a great question. It kind of comes again to what, you know, kind of where you're at, what stage of things you're at, but let's just, you know, in this case, I'd say like one, do you mind your cashflow and know what you can even afford to spend on paid advertising? If the answer is, is I don't know, or I can't then organics away, you gotta go. The reality is, and Jimmy's probably seen this from his radio days all the way to now is like, yeah, the, the, We had the phase of you pretty much had to pay for high-end distribution. I had to get onto radio, TV, and that was very costly because they were the ones who controlled distribution.

38:58 Distribution got opened up, right? And everyone was like, hey, we can get on this. And we had the golden age of organic, and it's still relatively there. But now it's gotten more sophisticated and it's like, hey, to win it organic for a lot of times, you have to put a lot of time into it. I think of, Tony, how much time you put into your organic stuff. And I know you might say, I don't edit a lot or do stuff, but like it's still time. You're out there filming, you're recording. So a lot of these people do, you know, they have teams in-house or using virtual assistant teams to go through this stuff. And so to me, I'm always looking at it. You're paying one way or another, right? You're either paying in time. This is the one thing I really... Say that again. Say that again. yeah you're paying one way or another you're paying with money you're paying with time and I think a lot of people don't value their time and again when you don't have excess capital or cash time is the resource you have and you got to spend it right and you got to go spend the time but a lot of times people don't you know people say hey what do you charge an hour for treating a patient two hundred bucks three hundred bucks okay Two hundred bucks.

39:53 How much time did you spend on organic content this month? Oh, probably like twenty. OK, so you spent six thousand dollars worth of time to go build that organic content. Did you get more back in return? Oh, we got some likes on our Instagram. And I go, well, that's to me, that's the that is the poorest waste of time and resources that I can think of. If you're not measuring it, you're not even counting what's it going to cost in terms of time. People are just so I've just found owners are just so adamant that time is free. And I have to stress that time is not free, man. Time is very expensive. And the compounding of time is even more expensive. If you do that for an entire year and you spend six thousand dollars a month of your time on organic content and you get four thousand likes that year and two hundred new followers and maybe one new patient objectively if you had to look at it would you go that was a good use of time and everyone would go no that's a terrible use of time right but when you're in it you're like oh that's what I can do I can do this so to me it's it's like I think I love organic if you're gonna do it go all in on it get serious about it the way that you do tony like spend time go ahead understand what business you want to be in right, like understand, and then triple down on it.

41:08 I mean, how many people laughed at me? I mean, classmates, I started this podcast, my podcast in PT school, so I was in class, right, with people who should have been excited around me. But it's funny, the people closest to you sort of all look at that weird thing that you're doing, like, you know, like it's like a dog turd. They're like, that's weird. And then the funny part is five years later, if you have success, those are the people who said, I knew it from the beginning, man. I knew it. Did you see the same thing when you were sort of choosing your own path? Did you see people like sort of maybe like look at you like, wouldn't it just be smarter to go work in a clinic? It feels more secure. And you're like, yes, secure. But like, I'd hate, I know I'll hate it. I'm secure in that I won't love it.

41:49 Yeah. I was just so open about it. I don't think anybody really like said anything. We never forget. We had a lecture in class. There's a business. This guy was doing a, this great guy came and did like a business budgeting class, which in hindsight, no one has, you know, like zero percent attention span going to that. And, you know, he's like, you know, he comes in with a funny question, who here wants to get a PT job right out of school? And, you know, expected all hands to go up. Mine didn't go up. And he just goes, Did you not hear the question? I was like, oh, no, I heard it. And he's like, are you being funny? And I was like, no. And he's like, why are you here? And I go, I don't know. I've been asking the same question to myself for a while. I love it. And so people knew.

42:30 People knew I was going to go a different. I was pretty furious at my school at the time when they wouldn't help me. I had a question in that same class of like, hey, if I can negotiate my salary up for five thousand dollars this year, what are some good questions I can ask? How can I do that? it doesn't seem like an appropriate question to be asking at this time. You know, you want to get a good job. And I said, I have one hundred fifty thousand dollars student loan debt. You bet your ass every five thousand dollars makes a big difference if I know how to negotiate that. Like, it might not matter to you, but it matters to me. Like, that's maybe a year sooner that I could buy a house or, you know, and I was just like I was I was like, I was essentially at that point, I was like, screw you guys. Whatever you tell me, I'm doing the opposite.

43:10 That's not the business they were in. They were in the business of churning out people who could pass the NPTE. And that's fine. And as soon as you understand that, in my opinion anyway, stuff gets a lot more clear. It gets easier. Sorry, simpler, not easier. yeah but then you start to go well do they understand their consumer right and you go no they don't like and they were playing in the model where there was such higher demand than supply and uh uh and now it's like you know it's awakening like is it worth it and so I anytime someone's like should I go to pt school and I say well you know what does it look like cost-wise if it's over like seventy five thousand dollars I go I probably wouldn't do it right and they're like oh but but you know I get a doctorate degree and I go yeah like let's just let's just run the math here right and I get it it's hard when you're twenty two or whatever right you don't you're just like I just I don't even know what to do next so it's a tough I'm glad I got accepted like oh my god I won I got accepted yeah and that's why I tell people all the time you don't don't win the interview at a job or pt school or anything you learn from the interview and you decide like you wouldn't be there unless they wanted you or are considering you as well you don't win interviews Tony, to answer your question directly, if you can, I would take whatever your best organic content is.

44:24 I would start potentially putting money behind it in terms of paid because it's a game of distribution. You're hoping with organic that it's going to get shared. People are going to share it to the right people. You also don't know who they're going to share it to. So those millions of people you get on your Facebook post, how many of them are actually... And again, this comes back to what's the end goal, right? If I want the metrics and I want it to be good... go ham, do whatever, right? But if it's like, hey, I want this content to lead to like where Dave's world in mind where it's like, well, I want this to end to a financial outcome for me because I'm putting time into this. Then you have to look at, well, does it make sense that a million people see it or two thousand of the right people see it? And what would you rather have? And I'd rather have two thousand of the people who are in that pocket We need that problem that this content can move them in a direction.

45:10 I would spend money every day versus time to hope I find that through organic. But people are like, you love ads. I don't care what works. I just found it's distribution, getting a message in front of the right people. We have these platforms that allow us to do it. And I think the big thing is you'll just see is, well, I did it once and it didn't work. It's like, yeah, I tried to do a PT eval first time. It was pretty bad, right? Like it took me like a lot of iterations to like figure out like, what's my flow? What do people respond to? Oh, I can't say, oh, your arm looks, you know, oh, your arm looks deformed. Whoa, can't say that. That's terrible, right? Like that gets a bad response. And, you know, you just have to take it serious, I think is the thing. Like whatever you're going to do, you got to take it serious.

45:51 So I know Dave's doing Google and I think a little Facebook. What are you seeing on other platforms? Like anyone doing LinkedIn, anyone doing something like Thumbtack or Angie's List or any of those? I was going to ask Will if he's doing any YouTube ads, but yeah. What do you got, Will? Yeah, YouTube. Yeah. So we do for our financial company. For PT side of stuff, here's what I've seen. I've seen a lot of people try YouTube ads to varying degrees of success. I'll just say there's probably a reason that a lot of the bigger groups that do advertising aren't doing YouTube or TikTok, really, or LinkedIn in particular. LinkedIn for PT to get new patients, for me, it's just so expensive in terms of impressions and getting in front of the right people.

46:35 And it's not really... I just haven't found it to work well. For us and like a B to B service, it works fine. But for a B to C standpoint, it's not really something I would recommend just from a cost. Like you can essentially just might as well, ten X the cost versus what you'd pay on Facebook or Instagram for the same outcome. You go, wow, we'll get professionals. One of the tough things with that, and just for context, so with like LinkedIn or Google, it's like if you try to get so granular on the targeting that you want to do, it sounds great, right? These are the two thousand perfect people. The algorithm goes, hey, there's only two thousand people like we're humans. We do worse with excess data, like at a certain threshold.

47:18 I can't do any better with data. Like it's the opposite with these algorithms. If you give them less data, the worst they perform. So they need enough data to like do this. And so if you were to limit it to two thousand people and you're like, these are perfect people, I'm going to get these people. The algorithm essentially is going to go. I don't even know how to spend your money because I can't learn enough from these two thousand people to make decisions. And so that's where LinkedIn gets really tough because you get super granular like, hey, I'm going to pinpoint these people. And at this point, honestly, like the AI targeting is getting so good. You just, it bases off your copy. So that's why in your copy, if you're running local ads, the things I see for biggest issues sound silly is people do not put their location where they're at.

47:58 Big one. So I've had in the last week, I've already seen three physical therapy, local clinic ads. One was in Jacksonville, Florida. I'm in Pittsburgh. One was in Phoenix. I'm in Pittsburgh. One was in somewhere in Washington. I'm in Pittsburgh, right? So like, you're like, you know and they didn't even say where they where their clinic was located in the app I mean so I had to click it I was like oh is this a pittsburgh one click nope it's not right uh and so really basic things like uh setting yourself up for like are you even putting the the town name that you're in uh you know it's gonna make a huge difference but to answer your question thumbtack I've seen people have decent success um more hit or miss I find it more for home services people crush on that so we have a lot of clients who are in home services and thumbtack is angie's list is huge for uh her I forget what the other one's called door next door or something um they crush uh bark bark is one of them Bark.

48:55 Yeah. For PT, not as much. But Google ads and Facebook just tried and true. TikTok for a while was working. I have found TikTok is just, it hasn't been as consistent on my end, at least just from what I've seen. So kind of tried and true. Some of the platforms too, TikTok's ad platform is just further behind than say Facebook or Instagram and is consistent. much as it sucks, it's still the best one out there in terms of like sophistication. And then Google and YouTube are kind of behind it. But yeah. We probably got time for one more question. What do you got for Will? Dave, I got one last question for you, man. What's working on the Google ad side for you?

49:36 I know you're, are you optimizing for calls? Last time I remember is probably months ago, you pulled up your screenshots and stuff. Are you, who are you targeting on Google? What's working for you? And what are you optimizing for? Yeah, so we're optimizing for conversions. In terms of the campaigns, we have home physical therapy. So that's either we get people that respond to that ad. It's either they're older, they have walking mobility issues, or they're very busy. And I got a little thumbs up there. They're very busy, like a busy professional. They just don't want to take their kids to an office or themselves.

50:22 Like they try to go to an office and they can't get like a seven or eight a.m. appointment or they can't get like a seven or eight p.m. appointment. And I have therapists that do those times. And we go to them. We go to their apartment. We're running lower back pain sciatica leads as well. That's a different campaign. We have another campaign for neck pain. I have a campaign for Parkinson's. And that is... Uh, that's actually a downloadable. It's like a, it's like a PDF, um, about like a healthier lifestyle or something. Um, so they get like a, that's actually like a, uh, actually you, you helped me with that, um, with, with building out the, uh, the go high level account and all that. Um, I think that's that's the most part of the different campaigns that we're running.

51:06 And I just I basically turn that up and down based off of like my therapist availability and demand and all that. And so the last I checked, it was like say I can pull up an email of one of the recent reports but the the conversion amount is kind of like in the one hundred two hundred dollar range which I'm fine with because that and that might sound more expensive or you know crazy compared to other owners or other other practices out there but like again I've used now this same exact ad login, the same ad profile for five or six years or something, and just basically turn it up or down.

51:51 And then if we're good, if... If I have therapists that like they don't have any openings or whatever, then we just turn all the ads down to like a dollar a day budget. So I've never paused the campaigns. I've never paused them ever because I was told like if you do that, if you turn them off or whatever, then you turn it back on. Things can be wacky or whatever. So like, you know, Ron Miller, he helped me with this guy that set him up five, six something years ago. Everything has been. good, I will comment and say, and I don't know what you're saying, but I would say that it's getting more expensive. But I also heard Alex Ramosi say, you know, people complain about leads, right? Every owner complains about leads and lead costs right now. And he says, the leads will never be cheaper than today.

52:36 Like moving forward, like the leads will always be more expensive, right? So Barring any technological crazy happenings like Facebook interest. It's like inflation. I hear it all the time. Advertising is getting expensive. So are eggs. Wait a month. Are you waiting for it to go down? Hey, it's going to be. Dave, thanks for sharing that because I'm just curious what you're running. We have time for one quick last question. I'm super fascinated. Jimmy, I got a question for you. So I came into this world with digital. You were back when radio was still like a primary advertiser, still is for a lot of places, but like, what did it cost to like put ads on the radio back then? Like I think if Dave and I, we can set our own budgets, right?

53:18 We can go, we can spend as little as a dollar a day. I'm assuming with radio stuff, it was like fixed costs. How did that, like, I'm super curious how that worked. Oh, it was let's make a deal. I mean, so it depended on market size. It depended on where, what station. Like here's something that's going to make you go bananas. Have you heard of the company Arbitron? Arbitron were the people that used to put boxes on top of TVs and they would like monitor what station you were actually watching. And that was an objective way of doing it, right? You got a box, you attached it, they paid you like eleven dollars to like do that. That was the Nielsen ratings, right? Yeah. Arbitron was for radio. Arbitron would send out diaries, the little books that you had to fill out for like the SATs, like your essay book, and they would just mail them out to zip codes.

54:04 If you got an Arbitron book, you essentially were representing forty thousand, ninety thousand people. And you would write down on Monday, I listened to this radio station for one hour. Right. So if your brother in law got an Arbitron book and they wrote that, I listened to that guy's radio station one hundred and sixty eight hours a week. You just won the lottery and you would be dumbfounded. The return rate on those books because they were paying people like eight dollars a week. to do that. So you want to talk about like my bonus and my radio stations rankings that I then turn that over to a sales team to then go say we're number one in males, eighteen to twenty five or women, twenty five to thirty four.

54:48 So that's where I learned quick. You either sell by the numbers and you die by the numbers or you sell by image. And I watched really skilled salespeople walk in. Here's a quick story I've told us before. It's fast, I promise. I got brought up because I was the afternoon guy and I was the I ran the radio station, this rock radio station in northeast Pennsylvania. Right. Fifty thousand watt flamethrower. And we walked into this guy's restaurant. He owned like a chain of restaurants, local chain in northeast Pennsylvania. Never wanted to advertise. John Crawford, my sales manager at the time, was like, this is Jimmy. I'm bringing him in because I want you to see the guy who's going to be talking about your restaurants every single day. And this guy was like, nobody listens to that radio station. They listen to another station.

55:28 John closed his book, right? Looked like he was starting to pack up and goes, all right, yeah, no worries, man. Tomorrow at five o'clock, though, I want you listening to Jimmy because Jimmy's going to tell everybody your restaurant has rats. And he goes, you can't do that. You can't do that. You can't do that. He goes, don't worry about it. Nobody listens to Jimmy. And they go, all right, all right, all right, sit down, sit down, sit down. That's right. So we're talking, we're negotiating. So in terms of how much it costs, That's like some mafia negotiation. I want some mafia level stuff. Did you have minimums? Like it couldn't go below a certain minimum? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they had guardrails. I mean, I'm going to say our guardrail was like a dollar a second.

56:10 So you wanted a sixty second ad spot. And that was also like we were on the sixties. Nobody's running a sixty second ad now. Yeah. I mean, I started when I was doing podcast advertising ten years ago, I was like a sixty or a thirty. Now I'm doing tens or fifteens like because I'd rather do I'd rather do volume. So, I mean, I haven't said this like publicly. I think I've said it to Tony or Dave, like for nine and a half years, I've essentially averaged two episodes a week. I'm going to five now because I've also got. virtual assistants or editors that I mean, I edited the first nine hundred and seventy episodes myself. And then if I had someone like Will or Tony or Dave around me, they'd be like, why are you doing that? I'm like, well, because I'm the only person who can do it right and take two hours to teach one other person to do it for.

56:56 That and you could be doing you could be recording two episodes while they're editing the other one. So I figured that out. But yeah, I mean, in northeast Pennsylvania, that was the seventieth biggest. It's also DME like marketing area. We were like market seventy or something like that. So we were I mean, my realization was making we were gross in five or six million a year, which wasn't bad. And we had four stations in one building. So I went from running – I went from being, like, the number two at a station to running a station to running two stations. I'll tell – that's a story for a different time, how I sort of stole a radio station. And, like, for good reason, though, to save my staff, I stole it. To me, there's got to be – like, that's – I would love to tune into an episode. I'd want to keep you guys posted. I'll tell that.

57:36 It was bad, but it was also good. Like, I had to steal the radio station from one person to save three. And I was like, I'll do that trolley problem math every day. I'd still do it. So – One day, I'd love to hear a background story on like how advertising and marketing and that kind of side of things has changed from that world of, and probably what it is now. Radio still is obviously going on, just how they've adjusted or how they're doing it. Yeah, no, I was looked at, because when this thing came out, I was twenty eight and I was like I did the math real quick and I was like, oh, time and space aren't going to matter anymore. And local radio relies on time and location. So I did the middle aged white guy thing. I tried law school. Nope.

58:16 Try business school. Also, nope, because I didn't have my DNA down yet. Knew those things should have known those things would work. And PT. All right. This seems good. Then I got to school and I was like, shit, this was should have also been a nope in a clinic anyway, all day. And it should have been a nope. So, yeah, we can talk about that. So Will, we finished the show with parting shots. We'll go around the table. Let's start with you though. What is your parting shot for today? If you're gonna run paid traffic, take it serious and spend the couple hours learning the backend side of stuff. So that way, if you have great copy, great images, they're actually pay off for you big time.

58:58 So I'll talk to you. Do the simple stuff, man. All right, guys, I'm going to say, Will, I would love, and I think everybody agrees, to have you back when we do an episode with Dave where we're talking about building the financial structure within the business so that we can sell it, we can do something with it. Like we're putting all this time, effort, money into building an asset, but it has to have value that goes beyond just us, whether it's an exit strategy or whatever. We need to get you back on to talk about that. Scott thinks that Will should have a weekly segment. We've also did things in radio where we record a segment. You could always just do a moment with Will and then just look at it.

59:40 Hey, guys, here's my weekly moment with Will. I'll represent the blog community for everyone out there. I love it. My parting shot is look more into understanding or knowing the value of your time. I think Will put it really well. And maybe reach out to Will, Alex, and get a little insight from what they help other practice owners, other business owners about. And even the thing that you mentioned earlier about the things that like suck your energy versus give you energy and like the things that suck your energy, you could probably outsource. Right. So on the show, we talked about like, you know, having a cleaning person or, you know, paying someone to do other things around your home or whatever it might be or your clinic like that.

1:00:21 And Tony painted his clinic, the inside of his clinic, not too long ago. But he did it with his family. So that gave him energy. That gave the family a task or a job or something to do together. So it didn't suck Tony's energy. It was something that they did together. Great. But if you're like a single practice owner and you're super busy and you need to work on your finances, you need to talk to Will and Alex at CEO Finance Academy, and you're valuing your hourly rate at a certain dollar amount, and it probably makes sense to outsource the painting because that's going to suck the energy from you. So think about your hourly rate, your hourly value, and what types of things you can get off your plate. Because like Will said, you're either paying with your money or you're paying with your time and effort.

1:01:06 Yeah. I would say, is it my turn, do I go, or is it Tony's turn? Yeah, all right, I'll go. Yeah, understand what business you're in and check your ego. Like, I can do that. How hard can Facebook ads be? Watch, look, I got an ad up. Look, look, I clicked. There's the ad. There it is. But check your ego. Is it performing well, right? So actually, someone just shared a great graphic that goes around every once in a while with a Dunning-Kruger effect, right? I am dumb. I'm so smart. I'm a genius. Or Valley of Despair. It's like, we're all really... repeated beginners, right? Lifelong learners. It's like, well, you got to be dumb every once in a while. This new thing that came out, I started working with our company with AI.

1:01:46 I was like, hi, I'm Jimmy. I'm dumb. Teach me about AI. And in a month, you know, Hormozy says, if you're willing to be bad at something for a hundred days, you will beat everybody like be bad at a hundred days. Right. And what are you willing to be bad at a hundred days at the things that give you energy, the things you're curious about, but maybe not good at just yet. All right, guys. And that's the show. I've probably known Will for about ten years now on social media. I've never, never to this day ever heard anybody say anything negative. Everything has been positive. Like, Will, you were just an amazing person. Thank you so much for coming, joining us. Jimmy, wrap it up. Forward tease. We've actually just got an email scandal.

1:02:27 We've got the dirt on Will Boyd. Tune in Tuesday. I usually block them all. That's why you never hear anything back. This is how you get people to tune in to you. You give them something. We've got breaking news on Tuesday, but you have to tune in on Tuesday to find out what we found out about. Now, Will, thanks for having me, guys. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Will. That was fun.