If You Can’t Prove It, Stop Doing It

WEBVTT

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beer on the shelf you're listening to the

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pt pinecat where smart people in health

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care come to make noise here's your host

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jimmy mckay

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All right.

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Hello, I'm Jimmy.

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That's Andrea.

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And we are here to explain why healthcare

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marketing doesn't work, dot, dot, dot,

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unless you listen to us or you do

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it better.

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And we've got examples of other people

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doing it better.

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This week,

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a health system that can actually prove

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with numbers on a dashboard,

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we love dashboards,

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that marketing can drive real revenue in

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healthcare.

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Who knew?

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We knew.

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We knew.

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We knew that.

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why a strategy almost everyone uses is

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quietly breaking oh that's some tension

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and a tease and what the smartest

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organizations are doing differently first

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let's start off on a positive note

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franciscan health i actually i forgot to

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look at where they're from where are they

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from where's franciscan from you know oh i

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don't know off the top of my head

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here jimmy

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All right.

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So you nodded like you were like,

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that was very good.

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You convinced me you knew them.

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You were like, yes, Frances.

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I know them.

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I don't know where they are.

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Well, let's just do this.

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In most healthcare organizations,

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marketing and revenue live in two

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different worlds.

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They're in two different departments and

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they're treated as such.

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But they sort of need to go hand

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in hand or at least hand to foot

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or something.

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Marketing, the problem is marketing

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can't prove it's driving revenue or hasn't

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been able to do that or people just

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haven't bothered to ask if it does that

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so leadership then sees that marketing as

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a cost and not a revenue driver and

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you and i both said on this show

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and off this show if you can't prove

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that what you're doing drives revenue or

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attention that eventually drives revenue

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you shouldn't be doing it

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right clear and you know useful beats

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clever clever is great but if it doesn't

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drive revenue what are we doing here okay

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uh so franciscan health decided to connect

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the dots that's really what it was here's

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what they did wow this is going to

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be remarkable outside of healthcare people

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are like of course you would do that

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they integrated crm and emr data

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We've said this before.

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How come EMRs just aren't like slowly

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becoming CRMs?

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They are.

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They're fancified CRMs, right?

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So they could track a patient from first

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click or first eyeball to scheduled visit

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to completed plan of care to lifetime

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interactions.

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Understand you have so much of this data

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available.

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We talk about data, data, data, and AI,

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AI, AI.

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What are you doing with it?

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And we'll get to some of the things,

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the failures in just a little bit.

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Here's what else they did.

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Standardized campaign tracking.

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Every campaign had clear attribution tied

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to service lines.

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Service lines are different.

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Healthcare is different at different entry

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points.

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So we have to understand what that is.

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Advertising for cancer care to everybody

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might be a miss.

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Why?

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Everybody doesn't have cancer, right?

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That sounds very, very obvious.

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But when you disconnect these things,

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it's not as obvious.

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They built a shared dashboard,

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not a marketing dashboard that only

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marketing people look at, care about,

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and can understand.

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A marketing and operations looking at the

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same data, not separate reports.

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This is fantastic.

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Again, some of this stuff sounds basic.

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Spoiler, because it is.

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Can't believe why it hasn't been done

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before.

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But hey,

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good for these people for doing it.

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And the last thing.

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They focused on service line growth,

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not marketing performance,

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but things like,

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how are we growing our orthopedic

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footprint?

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How are we letting more people in our

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communities know that they can get these

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different things?

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This was a big win.

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This is what we did at Mount Sinai.

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I'm not saying we did it perfectly.

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But when I was there,

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my short two years there,

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it was controlled.

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The good thing was it was controlled by

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vertical or by service line.

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The bad thing was we were on our

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own.

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Right.

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Here's almost no budget and minimal

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resources.

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Go grow this.

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And then how come you haven't every

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quarter, every six months in meetings?

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I was like, you gave me nothing.

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So what did I give you?

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Almost nothing.

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I gave you nothing plus a little bit.

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So here's the thing.

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Instead of the ad performed well,

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it really became in a meeting,

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this ortho campaign drove X number

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surgeries and X revenue.

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Because if you can't tie one of those

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things together,

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you're never going to get any more

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resources either.

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So the outcome specifically for

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Franciscan, are you ready for this?

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Their campaign drove,

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once they were able to track all these

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things, they were like, oh,

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we did this stuff and we found,

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look in the couch cushion.

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I love finding quarters in the couch

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cushions.

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Sixteen point seven million dollars in

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revenue.

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They were just able to attribute it now

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by saying we did X,

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Y happened because of Z.

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About twenty seven hundred patients were

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now attributed to all this stuff that

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marketing was doing can now lead to

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revenue.

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And I know it sounds icky talking about

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revenue, but if no revenue,

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we can't pay the doctors,

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we can't pay environmental services,

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we can't pay the finance people,

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we can't pay the people in the parking

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lot, we can't pay anybody.

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So in your experience, Andrea,

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small organizations, large organizations,

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what is the hardest part of connecting

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these systems?

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I just mentioned CRM and EHR.

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That sounds pretty obvious.

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What's the hardest part of doing that?

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I've banged my head against the wall in

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multiple areas of healthcare trying to do

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this.

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The hardest thing with small organizations

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is

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I think so, you know,

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if you're like a large system and you're

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on Epic or something like, you know,

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maybe there are more integrations,

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probably not actually.

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But when you're looking at a specialty

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provider,

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so I think about PT as specialty.

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I was in urgent care.

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There are others you're using more often

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than not.

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You're using an EMR that's designed

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specifically for your smaller portion of

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the health care industry.

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So.

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trying to get that vendor to do the

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things that are necessary to be able to

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integrate is sort of hard, right?

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Like you need to be on their roadmap

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to say,

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can we integrate or are you building XYZ

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in?

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And the hard thing in healthcare across

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the board is we have to be really

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careful with anything that we're plugging

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into our EMR because there's very,

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very sensitive data in there.

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And I think, you know,

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I was up against that

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with multiple organizations that I worked

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with.

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But if you can find a way to

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do this where you're not sharing PHI,

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then you're in pretty good shape because

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otherwise what happens is you have these

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two disconnected systems,

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which we've talked about.

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So part of it, I think,

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is there are technical

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There are technical roadblocks because the

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systems just can't do it right it's like

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well we don't want to open an API

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or we can't do it because of this

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I mean and I've spent so many times

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spinning my wheels trying to get this

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done,

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or it's just internally like we don't want

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to open our systems to talk to other

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systems.

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Understandably.

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And so I think you really just need

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to have some oversight and some guidelines

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in place when you're doing this to make

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sure that you're not sharing sensitive

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information.

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Right.

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Like I just am always in the camp

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like there is a way to get this

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done.

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You know,

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like we know we need an end to

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end view.

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There is a way to get this integrated.

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And if we can't figure it out,

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we need to bring someone in who can.

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Right, right, right, right.

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So who actually needs to own this?

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Here's a toss-up question.

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And the answer can't be both.

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Is it marketing or operations?

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You're already saying both.

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Yeah, no,

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I like to own it as a marketer.

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I know what information I need and I

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know what it should look like.

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That being said,

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I don't think you should hand this off

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to a junior marketer and go,

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here you go,

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own the integration of our two really

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important systems.

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I think it needs to be a marketing

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operations person specifically if you have

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that on your team,

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but otherwise it needs to be someone in

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marketing,

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but operations needs to be a really close

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partner in that process.

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yeah i mean this is direction so it

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should be a director or above right i

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mean this is the sum of all the

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things that you're doing in terms of

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marketing and finally what's the first

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step if someone doesn't have this yet i

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mean i guess it depends on the size

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of the organization because if if you're

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below a certain level and i don't have

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that mason dixon line but this this is

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simple but not easy so what's the first

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step if someone doesn't have this yet at

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their organization if they don't have the

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integration if they don't yeah if

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Or let's go even more basic.

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If they're not even trying to connect

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these two things,

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because some people are just like,

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marketing happens.

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What do we need?

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More marketing.

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Why do we need it?

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Because other people are doing it.

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Wrong answer, in my opinion.

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Other people are doing it is not the

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reason you should be doing it.

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That is usually the wrong answer.

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So where I start is I usually start

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with the EMR vendor.

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And usually for like some of these

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specialty organizations, again,

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I know PT is a huge industry,

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but when we think about larger healthcare

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systems, right,

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there are just different sizes.

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I start with the vendor and I talk

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about what I'm trying to accomplish.

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And I ask them if this is something

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I can do with their system currently,

00:09:13.597 --> 00:09:14.818
is this on their roadmap?

00:09:15.198 --> 00:09:16.220
What would it take to get on their

00:09:16.259 --> 00:09:16.779
roadmap?

00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:18.860
And then I bother them like every two

00:09:18.880 --> 00:09:22.062
weeks to a month until I figure out

00:09:22.082 --> 00:09:23.303
if it's on their roadmap.

00:09:24.113 --> 00:09:24.273
Right.

00:09:24.533 --> 00:09:24.714
Yeah.

00:09:24.813 --> 00:09:26.076
You need marketing to show up on the

00:09:26.115 --> 00:09:26.576
P&L.

00:09:27.057 --> 00:09:28.719
Otherwise, it doesn't get taken seriously.

00:09:28.839 --> 00:09:32.323
You've talked before how marketing

00:09:32.364 --> 00:09:34.927
positions have the shortest lifespan in

00:09:34.947 --> 00:09:35.528
the C-suite.

00:09:35.548 --> 00:09:36.028
Isn't that right?

00:09:36.389 --> 00:09:36.710
They do.

00:09:36.769 --> 00:09:37.451
Shortest tenure.

00:09:37.610 --> 00:09:39.352
Marketing leaders have the shortest tenure

00:09:39.373 --> 00:09:39.933
in the C-suite.

00:09:40.355 --> 00:09:40.855
Yeah.

00:09:40.956 --> 00:09:42.397
And maybe because if it doesn't show up

00:09:42.417 --> 00:09:43.038
on the P&L,

00:09:44.418 --> 00:09:46.119
this person doesn't feel like they're

00:09:46.139 --> 00:09:46.899
doing a good job.

00:09:47.259 --> 00:09:48.080
Vibes are off.

00:09:48.100 --> 00:09:49.500
I don't know how to judge this person.

00:09:50.221 --> 00:09:51.642
But if there's a metric now,

00:09:51.662 --> 00:09:52.962
if it's showing up on the P&L,

00:09:53.302 --> 00:09:53.844
which again,

00:09:54.563 --> 00:09:56.924
a lot of this stuff sounds really icky

00:09:57.205 --> 00:09:57.666
because it's like,

00:09:57.706 --> 00:09:58.525
you're talking about money,

00:09:58.586 --> 00:09:59.826
not patient care.

00:09:59.846 --> 00:10:00.447
It's like, no,

00:10:00.466 --> 00:10:02.107
we're trying to show off your patient care

00:10:02.447 --> 00:10:03.688
to give more patient care.

00:10:04.370 --> 00:10:05.129
And that's a good thing.

00:10:05.902 --> 00:10:06.101
Right.

00:10:06.221 --> 00:10:08.202
That's one of the things when I talk

00:10:08.243 --> 00:10:11.625
to founders, I, you know, my secret,

00:10:12.025 --> 00:10:14.866
one of my like sort of helpful,

00:10:14.966 --> 00:10:17.369
I think things that convince people,

00:10:17.509 --> 00:10:17.928
I guess,

00:10:17.989 --> 00:10:20.451
to go with a more senior level marketer

00:10:20.471 --> 00:10:21.892
than just bringing in a bunch of interns

00:10:21.932 --> 00:10:23.572
or freelancers is you really want to work

00:10:23.592 --> 00:10:25.854
with someone who speaks the language of

00:10:26.433 --> 00:10:27.134
the CFO.

00:10:28.863 --> 00:10:30.403
you know, the entire C-suite.

00:10:30.423 --> 00:10:31.845
So they're not just coming in going,

00:10:31.884 --> 00:10:32.806
we need to do marketing.

00:10:33.385 --> 00:10:34.626
We need to do some marketing things and

00:10:34.667 --> 00:10:36.248
show you vanity metrics and tell you,

00:10:36.768 --> 00:10:38.089
you know, we got four hundred likes.

00:10:38.249 --> 00:10:39.309
We need to be able to show you

00:10:39.330 --> 00:10:40.331
how it's growing the business.

00:10:40.750 --> 00:10:43.332
OK, second story,

00:10:43.373 --> 00:10:45.934
the channel that became the strategy.

00:10:46.134 --> 00:10:47.615
And I am not anti this.

00:10:47.796 --> 00:10:49.476
I'd like to go on record before saying

00:10:49.537 --> 00:10:50.236
it, not anti.

00:10:50.638 --> 00:10:51.999
I'm anti only this.

00:10:53.380 --> 00:10:56.102
paid search became pretty much the default

00:10:56.682 --> 00:10:59.966
because it's measurable and immediate.

00:11:00.145 --> 00:11:01.626
Those two things are pretty powerful.

00:11:01.826 --> 00:11:03.128
We just talked about being able to be

00:11:03.168 --> 00:11:03.687
measurable.

00:11:04.268 --> 00:11:05.589
So look at all these dashboards.

00:11:05.609 --> 00:11:06.870
You have your meta dashboard.

00:11:06.889 --> 00:11:07.591
You're able to say,

00:11:07.770 --> 00:11:09.091
I put a hundred dollars in.

00:11:09.731 --> 00:11:12.053
I got seventy two clicks from those

00:11:12.094 --> 00:11:13.114
seventy two clicks.

00:11:13.554 --> 00:11:15.596
This is how many appointments were booked.

00:11:15.916 --> 00:11:18.518
Therefore, this is my dollar per.

00:11:18.597 --> 00:11:20.558
This is my customer acquisition cost or my

00:11:20.619 --> 00:11:21.720
patient acquisition cost.

00:11:22.421 --> 00:11:23.261
Here's the problem.

00:11:24.142 --> 00:11:26.703
Healthcare turned that channel into an

00:11:26.744 --> 00:11:27.644
entire strategy.

00:11:27.663 --> 00:11:29.365
When I do presentations for organizations,

00:11:29.966 --> 00:11:32.727
paid search or paid advertising is one of

00:11:32.768 --> 00:11:33.427
my fingers.

00:11:33.548 --> 00:11:34.828
I use my hand where I bring everything

00:11:34.869 --> 00:11:35.850
back to the organization.

00:11:36.690 --> 00:11:37.931
But they turned it into an entire

00:11:38.010 --> 00:11:38.951
strategy.

00:11:38.971 --> 00:11:39.572
I mean,

00:11:39.611 --> 00:11:41.212
there are large enough organizations where

00:11:41.232 --> 00:11:42.875
they have a paid ad department when they

00:11:42.894 --> 00:11:43.434
get that big.

00:11:44.417 --> 00:11:47.038
So everything gets optimized for short

00:11:47.078 --> 00:11:48.340
term conversions.

00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:50.461
I need to convert because I'm being judged

00:11:50.500 --> 00:11:51.302
on a hundred dollars.

00:11:51.341 --> 00:11:52.543
Where does my hundred dollars go in the

00:11:52.562 --> 00:11:53.423
next thirty days?

00:11:54.203 --> 00:11:55.965
Last click attribution,

00:11:56.284 --> 00:11:57.947
which could be one of the worst as

00:11:57.966 --> 00:11:59.927
you close your eyes and not one of

00:11:59.947 --> 00:12:01.769
the worst things ever.

00:12:02.830 --> 00:12:03.149
You know,

00:12:04.390 --> 00:12:05.432
we'll talk about that in a second.

00:12:05.451 --> 00:12:06.352
Make sure I don't skip over it.

00:12:06.673 --> 00:12:09.575
And then are people already ready to act?

00:12:09.715 --> 00:12:11.735
That's how it gets optimized for that.

00:12:12.197 --> 00:12:13.738
So I think here's what they did wrong.

00:12:14.807 --> 00:12:16.607
Budget gets concentrated just in Google

00:12:16.707 --> 00:12:19.729
Ads because it proves ROI because you can

00:12:19.749 --> 00:12:21.669
measure it, except what happens there.

00:12:21.690 --> 00:12:23.591
If that's your only strategy when costs go

00:12:23.711 --> 00:12:25.991
up, uh-oh, your costs,

00:12:26.211 --> 00:12:27.672
like costs in a Google Ad or a

00:12:27.711 --> 00:12:29.692
particular keyword go up, uh-oh,

00:12:29.773 --> 00:12:30.714
what are we supposed to do?

00:12:31.173 --> 00:12:32.514
You don't own that channel,

00:12:32.693 --> 00:12:33.575
you are renting it.

00:12:34.034 --> 00:12:35.635
There's no investment in awareness.

00:12:36.716 --> 00:12:37.576
It's just,

00:12:38.096 --> 00:12:39.357
you're just trying to get in front of

00:12:39.398 --> 00:12:41.499
people who are ready and looking for the

00:12:41.538 --> 00:12:43.440
thing right this moment.

00:12:43.921 --> 00:12:45.461
Again, make sure I don't skip over.

00:12:46.162 --> 00:12:47.121
Are people ready to act?

00:12:48.003 --> 00:12:49.884
Messaging becomes clearly transactional.

00:12:50.244 --> 00:12:51.445
Book now, call today.

00:12:51.504 --> 00:12:54.726
That feels creepy, not healthcare.

00:12:54.807 --> 00:12:56.368
That feels transactional.

00:12:56.388 --> 00:12:57.369
That's exactly why I said that.

00:12:57.769 --> 00:12:59.490
And it does not do that thing that

00:12:59.549 --> 00:13:01.010
healthcare is supposed to do that we talk

00:13:01.030 --> 00:13:01.870
about when you're a clinician,

00:13:02.152 --> 00:13:02.892
building relationships.

00:13:04.677 --> 00:13:06.457
When I feel like I'm being sold and

00:13:06.498 --> 00:13:07.139
I need that thing,

00:13:07.198 --> 00:13:07.918
I guess I'll buy it.

00:13:08.379 --> 00:13:08.539
Right.

00:13:08.620 --> 00:13:09.200
Long term,

00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.542
these are decisions that we like to say

00:13:11.562 --> 00:13:12.342
it builds trust.

00:13:13.003 --> 00:13:14.183
And then instead of stepping back and

00:13:14.203 --> 00:13:14.443
saying,

00:13:14.524 --> 00:13:17.886
are we growing demand or are we just

00:13:17.947 --> 00:13:19.467
optimizing for conversions?

00:13:19.769 --> 00:13:20.288
So St.

00:13:20.328 --> 00:13:23.071
Elizabeth's saw this.

00:13:23.230 --> 00:13:26.133
They spent more than they had higher cost

00:13:26.173 --> 00:13:26.594
per click.

00:13:27.870 --> 00:13:28.870
same or worse growth.

00:13:29.130 --> 00:13:31.631
So spending more and getting the same or

00:13:31.692 --> 00:13:34.453
worse results, that's not good.

00:13:34.794 --> 00:13:36.274
And if you're not doing anything else,

00:13:36.936 --> 00:13:38.537
you didn't diversify,

00:13:38.817 --> 00:13:39.618
you're stuck with it.

00:13:39.798 --> 00:13:42.019
So that channel became the only strategy.

00:13:42.438 --> 00:13:43.679
And now you're up the creek without a

00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:45.902
paddle because they were only competing

00:13:45.922 --> 00:13:49.163
for people who were already searching.

00:13:51.105 --> 00:13:55.187
So you need upstream demand and creation.

00:13:55.268 --> 00:13:56.948
So here's really my question.

00:13:57.796 --> 00:13:59.876
Why is it so hard for organizations to

00:13:59.937 --> 00:14:03.058
pull budget out of paid search?

00:14:03.178 --> 00:14:04.519
If you're that organization that's saying,

00:14:04.659 --> 00:14:05.379
but, but, but,

00:14:05.980 --> 00:14:08.261
why is it so hard to pull budget

00:14:08.302 --> 00:14:09.741
from that to put it somewhere else?

00:14:09.761 --> 00:14:11.802
Because you've got to take from one to

00:14:11.844 --> 00:14:13.663
put in another.

00:14:13.683 --> 00:14:15.524
I just bit a hole in my tongue,

00:14:15.686 --> 00:14:17.586
Jimmy, trying to not say anything.

00:14:19.443 --> 00:14:22.110
So I have worked with so many

00:14:22.169 --> 00:14:23.874
organizations that have done this and it's

00:14:23.894 --> 00:14:24.375
so hard.

00:14:24.455 --> 00:14:26.298
So remember what I just said five minutes

00:14:26.339 --> 00:14:27.783
ago about speaking the language of the

00:14:27.822 --> 00:14:28.224
CFO.

00:14:29.231 --> 00:14:32.494
It's really hard for organizations to pull

00:14:32.533 --> 00:14:34.634
budget because of exactly what you said

00:14:34.654 --> 00:14:36.475
when you started talking about this.

00:14:37.096 --> 00:14:39.018
This is the channel that you can prove

00:14:39.177 --> 00:14:39.638
ROI.

00:14:39.857 --> 00:14:42.799
So I can say I spent a thousand

00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:45.701
dollars and got this many things.

00:14:45.841 --> 00:14:47.062
If you're set up right,

00:14:47.143 --> 00:14:48.464
you can see how many people clicked.

00:14:48.524 --> 00:14:49.964
And then if you take the next step

00:14:49.984 --> 00:14:51.666
to say how many people actually converted

00:14:51.706 --> 00:14:52.105
this talk,

00:14:52.166 --> 00:14:53.186
this is where you're talking about

00:14:53.225 --> 00:14:54.106
integrating systems.

00:14:56.327 --> 00:14:57.250
That's why it's so hard.

00:14:57.990 --> 00:14:58.172
I mean,

00:14:58.231 --> 00:14:59.914
I have so many stories around this.

00:15:00.316 --> 00:15:01.798
I've worked with a founder who

00:15:03.020 --> 00:15:05.282
literally made me cut my entire marketing

00:15:05.361 --> 00:15:08.024
budget because we couldn't prove direct

00:15:08.244 --> 00:15:10.985
ROI for a lot of in healthcare for

00:15:11.004 --> 00:15:12.706
a lot of those channels to only focus

00:15:12.745 --> 00:15:12.806
on.

00:15:12.966 --> 00:15:13.145
Well,

00:15:13.186 --> 00:15:15.947
what if we give you ten thousand dollars

00:15:16.067 --> 00:15:18.849
more to put towards towards that?

00:15:18.889 --> 00:15:20.789
Because we know we spent X and we

00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:21.750
got Y. And I'm like,

00:15:21.811 --> 00:15:23.991
that's not how the math works for for

00:15:24.052 --> 00:15:24.672
PPC.

00:15:24.731 --> 00:15:24.932
Right.

00:15:24.972 --> 00:15:27.374
Like if I spent fifty K and got

00:15:28.756 --> 00:15:30.758
you know, a thousand conversions,

00:15:30.977 --> 00:15:32.359
I'm not going to spend a hundred K

00:15:32.379 --> 00:15:33.578
and get two thousand conversions.

00:15:33.599 --> 00:15:34.820
Like it just doesn't work that way.

00:15:35.820 --> 00:15:37.721
But it feels like it should work that

00:15:37.740 --> 00:15:39.802
way because you're talking to people who

00:15:39.861 --> 00:15:40.981
live in spreadsheets.

00:15:41.062 --> 00:15:41.302
Right.

00:15:41.402 --> 00:15:43.243
And so not in a that's not a

00:15:43.283 --> 00:15:43.682
negative way.

00:15:43.702 --> 00:15:45.264
You have to live in spreadsheets to run

00:15:45.283 --> 00:15:45.744
your business.

00:15:45.764 --> 00:15:46.784
You need to sort of look at the

00:15:46.825 --> 00:15:49.446
financial health and patients per week and

00:15:49.466 --> 00:15:49.745
all that.

00:15:50.525 --> 00:15:51.927
But that's why it's really,

00:15:51.966 --> 00:15:54.227
really hard to sort of get people to

00:15:54.268 --> 00:15:55.528
shift their thinking on this.

00:15:55.589 --> 00:15:56.609
But what happens is

00:15:57.856 --> 00:15:58.341
like you said,

00:15:58.422 --> 00:15:59.652
all of your money's in this bucket.

00:15:59.711 --> 00:16:00.538
You do not own it.

00:16:01.453 --> 00:16:04.196
you rent it, and so Google decides.

00:16:04.275 --> 00:16:07.739
And I've talked with a recent client about

00:16:07.798 --> 00:16:08.058
this.

00:16:08.899 --> 00:16:10.801
Google decides how much you're spending.

00:16:10.841 --> 00:16:13.363
They determine if you're even showing up,

00:16:13.462 --> 00:16:14.283
where you show up,

00:16:14.323 --> 00:16:16.365
and that AI is factoring into this now.

00:16:16.885 --> 00:16:19.307
If your website isn't great or you have

00:16:19.327 --> 00:16:20.808
a bad online reputation,

00:16:21.028 --> 00:16:22.110
even though you're spending a bunch of

00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:23.010
money on PPC,

00:16:23.051 --> 00:16:24.532
you still may not be showing up in

00:16:24.552 --> 00:16:25.471
a favorable position.

00:16:26.393 --> 00:16:27.514
And when you do, like you said,

00:16:27.553 --> 00:16:28.774
it's very transactional.

00:16:28.934 --> 00:16:29.696
That being said,

00:16:30.296 --> 00:16:31.897
There are some organizations where it

00:16:31.917 --> 00:16:33.778
makes sense to be heavy on paid search,

00:16:33.918 --> 00:16:35.879
but that's just one tool in the toolbox.

00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:38.140
You need to still do a bunch of

00:16:38.160 --> 00:16:38.520
things.

00:16:38.581 --> 00:16:39.881
And I'll give you one example.

00:16:39.942 --> 00:16:41.101
When I worked in urgent care,

00:16:41.341 --> 00:16:44.364
I had a really large paid search budget

00:16:44.524 --> 00:16:46.144
because I had it down to a science

00:16:46.865 --> 00:16:47.966
to the extent that you can.

00:16:48.866 --> 00:16:50.707
And there were parents that were

00:16:51.831 --> 00:16:54.514
looking for immediate care and in some of

00:16:54.534 --> 00:16:56.277
our very competitive markets, you know,

00:16:56.317 --> 00:16:56.777
we had a,

00:16:57.197 --> 00:16:58.298
so this was one of many,

00:16:58.339 --> 00:16:59.299
many things that we did.

00:16:59.379 --> 00:17:00.921
We were, we had brand awareness.

00:17:00.961 --> 00:17:01.341
We, I mean,

00:17:01.361 --> 00:17:02.643
we had so much going on.

00:17:02.663 --> 00:17:03.464
This was just one thing.

00:17:03.984 --> 00:17:05.125
So at two o'clock in the morning,

00:17:05.144 --> 00:17:06.747
if your kid has a fever, right.

00:17:07.428 --> 00:17:09.450
You're like, what urgent care near me.

00:17:11.163 --> 00:17:11.604
shows up,

00:17:11.865 --> 00:17:13.605
book an appointment for the following

00:17:13.645 --> 00:17:13.986
morning.

00:17:14.006 --> 00:17:15.988
And it makes sense to do that because

00:17:16.008 --> 00:17:16.769
it's intent-based,

00:17:16.808 --> 00:17:19.310
but if it's someone that's not at that

00:17:19.371 --> 00:17:20.711
stage of the journey,

00:17:20.852 --> 00:17:24.255
it might not make sense for them.

00:17:24.275 --> 00:17:25.797
Understand the tool for who you're

00:17:25.836 --> 00:17:27.438
optimizing it for.

00:17:27.557 --> 00:17:27.817
Yes.

00:17:28.318 --> 00:17:29.880
Yeah, in that instance,

00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:31.101
three o'clock in the morning,

00:17:31.662 --> 00:17:34.163
your kid's got a hundred and four fever,

00:17:34.203 --> 00:17:35.964
you could optimize for last click

00:17:36.005 --> 00:17:36.605
attribution.

00:17:37.267 --> 00:17:39.067
Exactly.

00:17:39.107 --> 00:17:40.327
This is where I come back to,

00:17:40.847 --> 00:17:41.689
I grew up in New York.

00:17:41.949 --> 00:17:43.549
If you're watching a Yankee game in right

00:17:43.609 --> 00:17:45.309
field, there's an ad for Jaguar.

00:17:46.131 --> 00:17:47.911
They are not looking for last view

00:17:48.010 --> 00:17:51.393
attribution for their billboard ad in

00:17:51.432 --> 00:17:52.833
right field to buy a Jaguar.

00:17:54.034 --> 00:17:55.334
They know that they're advertising to a

00:17:55.374 --> 00:17:57.275
bunch of nine and ten-year-olds because in

00:17:57.335 --> 00:17:59.276
thirty years, if they earn enough,

00:17:59.355 --> 00:18:00.615
Jaguar is now a status.

00:18:00.915 --> 00:18:02.096
That is different than healthcare.

00:18:03.342 --> 00:18:05.063
But in competitive markets,

00:18:05.222 --> 00:18:06.784
understanding who gets what,

00:18:07.163 --> 00:18:09.306
especially for the different service lines

00:18:09.625 --> 00:18:10.606
like oncology,

00:18:10.946 --> 00:18:12.147
that is not something you're buying at

00:18:12.188 --> 00:18:13.989
three o'clock in the morning, correct?

00:18:14.009 --> 00:18:14.429
Correct.

00:18:14.808 --> 00:18:15.069
Right.

00:18:15.170 --> 00:18:15.750
Oncology care.

00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:17.711
But that's going to be a long,

00:18:18.030 --> 00:18:19.112
deep journey.

00:18:19.251 --> 00:18:21.773
And if I'm deciding between A and B,

00:18:22.634 --> 00:18:24.935
that decision or the basis for that

00:18:24.976 --> 00:18:25.536
decision,

00:18:25.675 --> 00:18:28.657
the grounds for that were laid long before

00:18:28.999 --> 00:18:29.838
that.

00:18:29.878 --> 00:18:30.358
Right.

00:18:30.398 --> 00:18:30.960
It just is.

00:18:31.471 --> 00:18:32.051
It just is.

00:18:32.132 --> 00:18:33.813
And I think another thing I talk with

00:18:34.034 --> 00:18:37.416
clients about is around exactly as you're

00:18:37.436 --> 00:18:39.538
saying, intent-based last touch.

00:18:39.659 --> 00:18:40.700
That's where you're going to see the

00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:42.501
conversions and see the ROI unpaid.

00:18:43.262 --> 00:18:44.584
That being said,

00:18:44.723 --> 00:18:46.665
you can certainly run a campaign for

00:18:46.705 --> 00:18:48.287
someone who's earlier in the process.

00:18:48.307 --> 00:18:49.648
So for PT, for example,

00:18:50.905 --> 00:18:52.426
my knee, like my knee hurts.

00:18:52.446 --> 00:18:53.027
What do I do?

00:18:53.166 --> 00:18:54.247
I don't know if that's the right search,

00:18:54.287 --> 00:18:54.426
right?

00:18:54.446 --> 00:18:57.327
Like someone who is not specific yet.

00:18:57.347 --> 00:18:58.969
They're not going best PT.

00:18:59.009 --> 00:19:01.028
They don't even know that they need PT.

00:19:01.169 --> 00:19:04.651
You can have a campaign that optimizes for

00:19:04.671 --> 00:19:04.931
that.

00:19:04.971 --> 00:19:06.931
Just don't expect people to click through

00:19:06.951 --> 00:19:08.471
because at that point you are just a

00:19:08.511 --> 00:19:09.332
digital billboard.

00:19:10.251 --> 00:19:11.673
So when they are ready down the line,

00:19:11.692 --> 00:19:12.292
they go, wait a minute.

00:19:12.333 --> 00:19:13.873
I think I saw that somewhere.

00:19:15.354 --> 00:19:17.355
Is this a reporting problem or is this

00:19:17.375 --> 00:19:18.494
a leadership problem?

00:19:20.772 --> 00:19:23.325
Um, in what way?

00:19:25.252 --> 00:19:25.513
Um,

00:19:27.423 --> 00:19:28.502
I was sort of setting you up for

00:19:28.542 --> 00:19:28.823
this one.

00:19:28.863 --> 00:19:29.844
It's sort of both,

00:19:29.884 --> 00:19:32.544
which is if you don't convince the

00:19:32.584 --> 00:19:34.525
leadership that what you're doing is

00:19:34.565 --> 00:19:36.325
valuable, we won't measure it.

00:19:36.404 --> 00:19:37.205
And if we don't measure it,

00:19:37.226 --> 00:19:38.326
we can never prove it again.

00:19:38.486 --> 00:19:38.945
Exactly.

00:19:39.506 --> 00:19:40.686
Exactly that.

00:19:41.366 --> 00:19:41.906
I think that's it.

00:19:41.967 --> 00:19:44.106
I think there's leadership needs to

00:19:44.167 --> 00:19:45.627
understand why we're doing what we're

00:19:45.667 --> 00:19:47.548
doing and why we're not doing what we're

00:19:47.567 --> 00:19:47.989
not doing.

00:19:49.189 --> 00:19:51.429
And if you're not reporting on it and

00:19:51.469 --> 00:19:52.950
being very transparent,

00:19:53.109 --> 00:19:53.269
then

00:19:53.786 --> 00:19:55.686
you're not going to get more budget to

00:19:55.727 --> 00:19:57.606
do other things or to continue doing this.

00:19:58.307 --> 00:19:58.688
Correct.

00:19:59.268 --> 00:20:00.107
Okay.

00:20:00.268 --> 00:20:01.388
Third story for today.

00:20:01.429 --> 00:20:02.648
I wanted to end on like something that

00:20:02.669 --> 00:20:04.170
someone's like doing well and maybe

00:20:04.210 --> 00:20:05.430
something that people can steal.

00:20:05.890 --> 00:20:07.490
And this is building demand before it

00:20:07.530 --> 00:20:07.911
exists.

00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:09.432
We just, oh wait, I want, oh no,

00:20:09.511 --> 00:20:10.332
I said, I talked about that.

00:20:10.372 --> 00:20:11.071
Talk about Jaguar,

00:20:11.092 --> 00:20:12.553
which is like last click attribution.

00:20:12.573 --> 00:20:13.153
That was the thing.

00:20:13.573 --> 00:20:15.134
If that's the only thing you're optimizing

00:20:15.173 --> 00:20:16.574
for, that's transactions.

00:20:16.653 --> 00:20:18.174
I wrote an article on LinkedIn last week

00:20:18.214 --> 00:20:20.674
where I essentially talked about sales

00:20:20.895 --> 00:20:21.496
life cycle.

00:20:22.435 --> 00:20:23.616
in technology sales.

00:20:23.717 --> 00:20:26.278
And I went from prostitution to marriage,

00:20:26.338 --> 00:20:27.660
different types of relationships in

00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:28.280
different stages.

00:20:28.740 --> 00:20:29.862
This is also like you're,

00:20:30.343 --> 00:20:32.964
I was taught like public relations,

00:20:33.005 --> 00:20:34.526
you're building a relationship with the

00:20:34.546 --> 00:20:34.826
public.

00:20:34.865 --> 00:20:36.207
You're either doing that well,

00:20:36.728 --> 00:20:37.669
or you're doing it poorly.

00:20:37.909 --> 00:20:39.190
You're never not doing it.

00:20:39.490 --> 00:20:40.351
If you're not doing it,

00:20:40.371 --> 00:20:41.090
you're doing it poorly.

00:20:41.171 --> 00:20:41.711
That is news.

00:20:41.731 --> 00:20:42.732
All right.

00:20:42.792 --> 00:20:43.472
So here's what St.

00:20:43.512 --> 00:20:44.314
Elizabeth's did.

00:20:44.354 --> 00:20:45.714
Here's what I think's next and could be

00:20:45.734 --> 00:20:47.115
a trend and wanted to get your input.

00:20:47.195 --> 00:20:48.778
Building demand before it exists.

00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:51.241
Which is the best time to plant a

00:20:51.282 --> 00:20:52.364
tree if you want shade?

00:20:52.423 --> 00:20:53.163
Twenty years ago.

00:20:53.684 --> 00:20:54.826
What's the next best time?

00:20:54.986 --> 00:20:55.185
Now.

00:20:55.666 --> 00:20:55.886
Right.

00:20:56.146 --> 00:20:57.067
Not tomorrow, right?

00:20:57.848 --> 00:21:00.550
So most healthcare marketing shows up day

00:21:00.592 --> 00:21:02.413
late and a dollar short when the patient

00:21:02.432 --> 00:21:03.795
is already making the decision.

00:21:03.954 --> 00:21:05.496
Again, there are some examples.

00:21:06.196 --> 00:21:07.858
Kid has fever, three in the morning.

00:21:08.219 --> 00:21:09.079
That's a good place to be.

00:21:09.912 --> 00:21:11.673
But I think the problem is everybody's

00:21:11.712 --> 00:21:13.012
competing at the same moment.

00:21:13.212 --> 00:21:15.273
I've given an example before about when my

00:21:15.314 --> 00:21:16.875
boss asked me what my budget was going

00:21:16.894 --> 00:21:17.434
to be for the St.

00:21:17.474 --> 00:21:19.715
Patrick's Day parade when I was in radio.

00:21:19.816 --> 00:21:20.236
And I said,

00:21:20.576 --> 00:21:21.817
I want fifteen thousand dollars,

00:21:21.856 --> 00:21:22.836
but I'm not going to spend it at

00:21:22.856 --> 00:21:24.678
the dumb parade that everybody else in my

00:21:24.718 --> 00:21:25.458
market is going to be.

00:21:25.837 --> 00:21:26.657
I'm going to spend it in April,

00:21:26.698 --> 00:21:28.358
May and June when they already blew their

00:21:28.398 --> 00:21:29.459
budget for the quarter.

00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:31.559
And it looked crazy at first.

00:21:31.660 --> 00:21:32.881
And then I look like a genius.

00:21:33.661 --> 00:21:35.103
So the problem is differentiation

00:21:35.143 --> 00:21:35.683
disappears.

00:21:35.743 --> 00:21:37.246
Everybody's yelling at the same time.

00:21:37.306 --> 00:21:39.989
Why yell when everyone else is screaming?

00:21:40.490 --> 00:21:42.593
Then it just becomes location,

00:21:42.853 --> 00:21:43.653
availability,

00:21:44.428 --> 00:21:45.868
Whoever shows up first is,

00:21:46.328 --> 00:21:47.189
and that's not how you want to

00:21:47.229 --> 00:21:48.169
differentiate yourself.

00:21:48.229 --> 00:21:49.349
That's a real estate game,

00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:50.710
which if you're big,

00:21:50.890 --> 00:21:51.611
you want to play that.

00:21:51.790 --> 00:21:53.310
And if you're small or you're not,

00:21:53.951 --> 00:21:54.531
it's binary.

00:21:54.592 --> 00:21:55.751
You are either the biggest and the most

00:21:55.771 --> 00:21:58.192
available or you're not, right?

00:21:58.212 --> 00:21:58.613
So St.

00:21:58.633 --> 00:22:00.213
Elizabeth flipped the model.

00:22:00.574 --> 00:22:02.615
They built a coordinated full funnel

00:22:02.654 --> 00:22:03.615
system, right?

00:22:03.894 --> 00:22:05.497
Not just in one spot.

00:22:05.616 --> 00:22:08.319
So they connected TV and YouTube content,

00:22:08.539 --> 00:22:11.423
introducing services before the need was

00:22:11.542 --> 00:22:12.002
urgent.

00:22:12.463 --> 00:22:15.046
I don't hire the best lawn care service.

00:22:15.405 --> 00:22:17.709
I hire the best one amongst the ones

00:22:17.909 --> 00:22:18.589
I know about.

00:22:19.590 --> 00:22:21.231
No last click attribution yet.

00:22:21.311 --> 00:22:21.732
Not there.

00:22:21.972 --> 00:22:23.453
That's top of funnel, as we'd call it,

00:22:23.493 --> 00:22:23.775
kids.

00:22:24.796 --> 00:22:26.497
They created social and educational

00:22:26.537 --> 00:22:26.958
content.

00:22:28.118 --> 00:22:30.900
i'm here for you hard to hard to

00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:33.682
put an roi on that directly but that

00:22:33.761 --> 00:22:36.682
is how we make decisions for better or

00:22:36.722 --> 00:22:40.125
for worse um they did do some paid

00:22:40.184 --> 00:22:43.306
search again not anti i'm anti and sounds

00:22:43.326 --> 00:22:46.126
like you are too anti only or or

00:22:46.327 --> 00:22:48.208
over reliance if the channel becomes the

00:22:48.228 --> 00:22:50.730
strategy and then finally consistent

00:22:50.829 --> 00:22:53.270
messaging across all stages

00:22:53.891 --> 00:22:55.932
They were saying something not the same.

00:22:56.593 --> 00:22:57.733
I looked at some of their ads,

00:22:57.993 --> 00:22:59.894
not the same thing repeated over and over

00:22:59.934 --> 00:23:01.656
again, but consistent.

00:23:01.757 --> 00:23:04.519
It felt the same four different stages.

00:23:04.778 --> 00:23:06.799
You speak differently to a person who's in

00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.422
the market for a car than you do

00:23:09.461 --> 00:23:11.303
when someone is ready to make a buying

00:23:11.323 --> 00:23:11.703
decision.

00:23:11.804 --> 00:23:13.005
What's the difference between these two

00:23:13.025 --> 00:23:13.285
things?

00:23:13.345 --> 00:23:14.526
What will put you over the edge, right?

00:23:15.307 --> 00:23:16.548
So when somebody finally searched,

00:23:16.948 --> 00:23:18.648
they weren't choosing between options.

00:23:18.969 --> 00:23:22.151
They were confirming the decision they

00:23:22.270 --> 00:23:22.852
already made.

00:23:23.031 --> 00:23:24.352
I talk all about this.

00:23:24.512 --> 00:23:26.713
We're big, dumb animals.

00:23:27.013 --> 00:23:29.295
We make emotional decisions and we back

00:23:29.315 --> 00:23:30.195
them up with logic.

00:23:30.536 --> 00:23:31.696
But a lot of times in healthcare,

00:23:32.037 --> 00:23:34.959
we love the statistics and the rankings.

00:23:35.019 --> 00:23:36.759
Actually, rankings, I think,

00:23:36.859 --> 00:23:39.721
are more emotional than logical.

00:23:40.781 --> 00:23:41.521
In New York City,

00:23:41.561 --> 00:23:43.623
it was whatever you were ranked by

00:23:43.722 --> 00:23:45.962
whatever service was ranking number one in

00:23:46.103 --> 00:23:46.844
orthopedics.

00:23:47.584 --> 00:23:49.183
That to me is actually,

00:23:49.683 --> 00:23:50.585
it's more emotional.

00:23:50.704 --> 00:23:51.845
I want to be with number one.

00:23:51.865 --> 00:23:52.505
Well,

00:23:52.825 --> 00:23:53.965
what if you can't get in with number

00:23:54.046 --> 00:23:54.125
one?

00:23:54.165 --> 00:23:55.365
Is number three better than four?

00:23:55.385 --> 00:23:56.365
I don't really care about that.

00:23:56.465 --> 00:23:57.406
I want to go with number one.

00:23:58.626 --> 00:24:00.146
I would argue is more of an emotional

00:24:00.186 --> 00:24:01.788
decision than a logical decision.

00:24:01.988 --> 00:24:02.928
So their outcomes,

00:24:10.924 --> 00:24:11.464
That was a long one.

00:24:11.944 --> 00:24:14.906
What is the hardest part of aligning all

00:24:14.946 --> 00:24:16.467
those channels I just mentioned?

00:24:16.946 --> 00:24:18.008
TV and YouTube,

00:24:18.347 --> 00:24:20.028
social and educational content,

00:24:20.087 --> 00:24:20.969
paid search.

00:24:21.909 --> 00:24:24.009
What's the hardest part of aligning all

00:24:24.029 --> 00:24:27.310
those different channels at one time?

00:24:27.351 --> 00:24:30.231
The hardest part isn't aligning them so

00:24:30.271 --> 00:24:33.534
much as it is proving what worked.

00:24:34.973 --> 00:24:35.653
That's what it is.

00:24:35.693 --> 00:24:37.015
So, you know, you

00:24:37.958 --> 00:24:40.560
Any marketer who knows what they're doing

00:24:40.780 --> 00:24:42.983
can put together an integrated campaign.

00:24:43.644 --> 00:24:45.385
And within that integrated campaign,

00:24:45.425 --> 00:24:45.747
you know,

00:24:45.946 --> 00:24:47.327
these are the channels we're using.

00:24:47.367 --> 00:24:48.308
This is the creative.

00:24:48.348 --> 00:24:49.510
This is our message.

00:24:50.191 --> 00:24:52.314
Here's when it's happening and all of

00:24:52.354 --> 00:24:52.574
that.

00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:54.820
Where it becomes challenging,

00:24:54.861 --> 00:24:57.260
and this is the attribution piece,

00:24:57.340 --> 00:24:59.201
and I've used a lot of attribution models.

00:24:59.241 --> 00:25:00.662
I've used first, I've used last,

00:25:00.781 --> 00:25:01.442
I've used multi.

00:25:01.663 --> 00:25:03.843
It's so hard and it's harder now than

00:25:03.942 --> 00:25:07.064
ever to the point of it's impossible now.

00:25:07.183 --> 00:25:08.585
And any vendor that tells you they can

00:25:08.625 --> 00:25:08.884
give you

00:25:09.300 --> 00:25:09.580
you know,

00:25:09.820 --> 00:25:12.383
perfect attribution is lying to you

00:25:12.423 --> 00:25:15.564
because it is impossible to truly know at

00:25:15.584 --> 00:25:17.404
this stage, we're on different devices,

00:25:17.444 --> 00:25:18.645
we're on different browsers.

00:25:18.705 --> 00:25:20.186
We have, we just have different habits.

00:25:20.207 --> 00:25:23.107
Like there's no way to track one person.

00:25:23.127 --> 00:25:25.288
And this is where some self-reported,

00:25:25.328 --> 00:25:25.509
like,

00:25:25.548 --> 00:25:27.130
how did you hear about us can sometimes

00:25:27.190 --> 00:25:28.230
help with that direction,

00:25:28.730 --> 00:25:29.872
different conversation for a different

00:25:29.912 --> 00:25:31.011
day.

00:25:31.031 --> 00:25:32.353
So I think the hard thing is not

00:25:32.393 --> 00:25:33.393
necessarily aligning,

00:25:33.452 --> 00:25:37.955
but it really is trying to figure out

00:25:37.976 --> 00:25:38.115
what,

00:25:39.493 --> 00:25:40.334
What drove what?

00:25:40.433 --> 00:25:43.295
And is there any piece of is there

00:25:43.335 --> 00:25:44.734
any channel that we know for sure,

00:25:44.755 --> 00:25:46.455
like did not assist at all and we

00:25:46.496 --> 00:25:47.276
can get rid of it?

00:25:47.296 --> 00:25:49.896
I but I do talk a lot about

00:25:50.017 --> 00:25:51.957
the brand awareness piece sort of

00:25:51.997 --> 00:25:55.377
assisting the paid pieces and the paid

00:25:55.397 --> 00:25:56.999
sort of assisting the brand awareness.

00:25:57.179 --> 00:26:00.299
Like you can't just drop a whole demand

00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.240
gen or brand awareness piece because you

00:26:03.280 --> 00:26:04.740
can't necessarily track it.

00:26:05.270 --> 00:26:08.792
M&Ms runs TV commercials with talking

00:26:08.873 --> 00:26:09.353
M&Ms.

00:26:10.353 --> 00:26:11.773
Do you think they're monitoring the

00:26:11.894 --> 00:26:15.756
markets where the TV commercials run and

00:26:15.836 --> 00:26:17.056
the week that they run?

00:26:17.336 --> 00:26:18.977
I don't buy M&Ms.

00:26:19.917 --> 00:26:21.278
That's just my M&M buying habit.

00:26:21.597 --> 00:26:22.959
I don't buy M&Ms because I was like,

00:26:22.979 --> 00:26:25.700
you know, talking M&Ms talk me into it.

00:26:26.881 --> 00:26:29.102
But when I'm deciding between thirty nine

00:26:29.902 --> 00:26:31.742
hundred different types of candy and

00:26:32.911 --> 00:26:33.151
Again,

00:26:33.171 --> 00:26:34.392
I don't even know if the talking M&M

00:26:34.432 --> 00:26:34.771
did it,

00:26:34.811 --> 00:26:37.492
but it makes me think of M&Ms when

00:26:37.573 --> 00:26:39.054
I'm standing at the aisle.

00:26:39.554 --> 00:26:39.673
Well,

00:26:39.693 --> 00:26:41.914
then if you were only doing last click

00:26:41.974 --> 00:26:42.575
attribution,

00:26:42.595 --> 00:26:44.935
you would do all the advertising budget

00:26:44.955 --> 00:26:46.297
would be spent at the aisle.

00:26:47.096 --> 00:26:48.298
But it's not done that way.

00:26:48.498 --> 00:26:49.617
And M&Ms knows this.

00:26:49.637 --> 00:26:51.019
So the Mars company knows this.

00:26:51.038 --> 00:26:52.538
And Jaguar knows this.

00:26:52.598 --> 00:26:53.779
And Rolex knows this.

00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:55.560
I think you brought up something

00:26:55.580 --> 00:26:56.201
important, too.

00:26:58.055 --> 00:26:59.435
You can show up everywhere.

00:26:59.635 --> 00:27:00.076
You can,

00:27:01.517 --> 00:27:03.719
but you can't because of budget and

00:27:03.778 --> 00:27:04.719
creative constraints.

00:27:06.700 --> 00:27:11.403
So understanding where not to show up is

00:27:11.483 --> 00:27:13.904
probably just as important as knowing

00:27:13.924 --> 00:27:14.746
where to show up.

00:27:14.786 --> 00:27:15.685
I'll give you an example.

00:27:16.707 --> 00:27:20.689
Somebody pointed out that Rolex has never

00:27:21.089 --> 00:27:22.089
run a Super Bowl ad,

00:27:22.269 --> 00:27:24.111
which doesn't make any sense because the

00:27:24.132 --> 00:27:25.873
Super Bowl is going to be the most

00:27:26.032 --> 00:27:26.472
eyes open.

00:27:27.829 --> 00:27:28.269
In the world.

00:27:29.210 --> 00:27:29.390
Right.

00:27:29.410 --> 00:27:31.010
Rolex makes that decision from what I've

00:27:31.050 --> 00:27:31.810
heard and what I've read.

00:27:31.830 --> 00:27:33.932
And I think it's fascinating because they

00:27:33.971 --> 00:27:34.751
advertise a,

00:27:34.832 --> 00:27:36.291
do you know where Rolex advertises any

00:27:36.332 --> 00:27:37.393
sport and sporting events?

00:27:37.833 --> 00:27:38.833
Like where do they show up?

00:27:38.853 --> 00:27:40.413
Tennis.

00:27:40.432 --> 00:27:40.834
Wimbledon.

00:27:40.854 --> 00:27:41.973
Yep.

00:27:41.993 --> 00:27:42.453
Big ones.

00:27:42.574 --> 00:27:43.673
Wimbledon and F one.

00:27:43.693 --> 00:27:46.255
Oh, and they say,

00:27:47.654 --> 00:27:48.336
this is who we are.

00:27:49.336 --> 00:27:50.076
We're not here.

00:27:51.195 --> 00:27:51.596
We are up here.

00:27:51.615 --> 00:27:52.836
Right.

00:27:52.856 --> 00:27:54.116
They could get better.

00:27:54.277 --> 00:27:54.517
You know,

00:27:54.557 --> 00:27:56.278
they could get good ROI in terms of

00:27:56.357 --> 00:27:57.238
dollar for eyeballs.

00:27:57.696 --> 00:27:58.538
Right.

00:27:58.557 --> 00:27:59.358
Dollar for eyeball.

00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:01.280
That's fantastic.

00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:03.583
But Wimbledon says we're not going to be

00:28:03.623 --> 00:28:06.425
there because that would erode our brand.

00:28:06.746 --> 00:28:09.388
We know where our real people live.

00:28:10.329 --> 00:28:10.750
Buyers.

00:28:10.931 --> 00:28:12.071
People are actually going to make that

00:28:12.112 --> 00:28:12.451
decision.

00:28:12.531 --> 00:28:12.692
Now,

00:28:12.913 --> 00:28:14.795
those people probably also watch the Super

00:28:14.835 --> 00:28:16.016
Bowl, though.

00:28:16.036 --> 00:28:16.576
Probably both.

00:28:16.836 --> 00:28:18.137
But a lot of other people watch the

00:28:18.157 --> 00:28:18.558
Super Bowl.

00:28:19.102 --> 00:28:21.163
right and so the juice isn't worth the

00:28:21.183 --> 00:28:23.266
squeeze but also it says about wimbledon

00:28:23.346 --> 00:28:25.287
is we're here so when they go to

00:28:25.307 --> 00:28:26.468
charge you i don't even know what a

00:28:26.488 --> 00:28:28.329
rolex costs thirty thousand dollars

00:28:28.369 --> 00:28:31.112
something mind-blowing i'm not in i'm not

00:28:31.132 --> 00:28:32.993
in the altitude of rolex not yet anyway

00:28:33.733 --> 00:28:36.316
um they understand where to be and where

00:28:36.415 --> 00:28:37.717
not to be like i sort of wanted

00:28:37.737 --> 00:28:39.398
to and i know i use extreme examples

00:28:39.419 --> 00:28:40.579
but i think you sort of have to

00:28:40.779 --> 00:28:42.621
to point out why you shouldn't shouldn't

00:28:42.641 --> 00:28:43.122
be places

00:28:43.615 --> 00:28:44.255
And that's just it.

00:28:44.336 --> 00:28:45.056
And that's the,

00:28:45.556 --> 00:28:46.436
we may not be able to tell the

00:28:46.596 --> 00:28:47.917
ROI on all of the things,

00:28:48.057 --> 00:28:49.759
but we know we shouldn't be where our

00:28:49.798 --> 00:28:50.599
buyers are not.

00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:52.441
So we know if we're trying, like, again,

00:28:52.461 --> 00:28:53.721
I'm going to go back to urgent care

00:28:53.741 --> 00:28:55.963
because it was such a great example of

00:28:56.044 --> 00:28:57.164
knowing it was a mom.

00:28:57.224 --> 00:28:58.546
She was the target.

00:28:58.665 --> 00:28:59.727
Like that was the target.

00:29:00.487 --> 00:29:04.248
And we know what radio she listens to.

00:29:04.307 --> 00:29:05.887
We know what social media she's on.

00:29:05.968 --> 00:29:07.848
And so we put money there.

00:29:07.929 --> 00:29:08.108
I mean,

00:29:08.148 --> 00:29:10.689
another organization I worked with in the

00:29:10.729 --> 00:29:12.690
PT space was entering a new market and

00:29:12.730 --> 00:29:14.710
it was super commuter friendly.

00:29:14.750 --> 00:29:15.049
And I'm like,

00:29:15.089 --> 00:29:17.530
let's do a takeover of the train station.

00:29:17.691 --> 00:29:18.750
Like, let's let's do it.

00:29:19.090 --> 00:29:20.131
Can't measure the ROI.

00:29:20.250 --> 00:29:21.250
Absolutely.

00:29:21.310 --> 00:29:23.112
We have a QR code or something on

00:29:23.172 --> 00:29:23.291
it.

00:29:24.251 --> 00:29:25.112
Right.

00:29:25.152 --> 00:29:26.092
You want to know what's funny?

00:29:26.152 --> 00:29:27.313
Do you want to know the quickest way

00:29:27.353 --> 00:29:28.792
that ROI goes out the window?

00:29:31.707 --> 00:29:32.387
Here's a quick one.

00:29:33.127 --> 00:29:34.028
If you had pitched,

00:29:34.147 --> 00:29:36.209
let's take over this train station.

00:29:36.989 --> 00:29:37.890
And the first question is,

00:29:37.930 --> 00:29:38.789
what's that going to cost?

00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:40.131
Which is a valid question.

00:29:40.570 --> 00:29:41.270
What are we going to get?

00:29:41.550 --> 00:29:42.192
Can't track it.

00:29:42.711 --> 00:29:44.372
The quickest way to throw that out is

00:29:45.173 --> 00:29:47.413
that idea of taking over the train station

00:29:47.453 --> 00:29:48.173
gets denied.

00:29:48.574 --> 00:29:49.574
And three months later,

00:29:49.615 --> 00:29:50.595
your competitor does it.

00:29:52.055 --> 00:29:53.796
And everyone goes, why didn't we do that?

00:29:53.816 --> 00:29:56.557
And you go, we pitched to do that.

00:29:56.576 --> 00:29:58.097
Suddenly it doesn't matter because they

00:29:58.238 --> 00:29:59.137
own it and we want it.

00:29:59.337 --> 00:30:00.459
Scarcity.

00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:00.719
Yep.

00:30:02.045 --> 00:30:03.445
That is the fastest way to do it.

00:30:03.526 --> 00:30:05.646
Why didn't we think of this?

00:30:05.886 --> 00:30:08.087
Whenever a competitor would do something

00:30:08.128 --> 00:30:08.689
creative,

00:30:09.648 --> 00:30:13.310
I dreaded walking in the office the next

00:30:13.351 --> 00:30:15.173
day and would say,

00:30:15.232 --> 00:30:16.153
because everybody would go,

00:30:16.173 --> 00:30:16.854
look what they did.

00:30:16.973 --> 00:30:17.894
It's so revolutionary.

00:30:17.993 --> 00:30:18.855
Why didn't we do that?

00:30:19.075 --> 00:30:20.556
Which would lead me to my next question.

00:30:20.935 --> 00:30:22.497
Well, my answer was usually, hey,

00:30:22.777 --> 00:30:24.117
I think what they did was fantastic.

00:30:24.458 --> 00:30:27.539
Let's deconstruct how they did it and why

00:30:27.579 --> 00:30:27.980
they did it.

00:30:28.961 --> 00:30:31.041
And then I try to play devil's advocate,

00:30:31.082 --> 00:30:32.182
although the devil doesn't really need an

00:30:32.242 --> 00:30:33.163
advocate most of the time.

00:30:33.545 --> 00:30:35.266
If I would have pitched that idea to

00:30:35.326 --> 00:30:36.386
you six months ago,

00:30:36.406 --> 00:30:37.528
would you have said yes?

00:30:37.928 --> 00:30:38.989
Because the question is,

00:30:39.309 --> 00:30:41.751
do most organizations even you have to ask

00:30:41.791 --> 00:30:43.772
yourself, do we have the structure?

00:30:44.775 --> 00:30:46.557
To do this, do we have the,

00:30:46.636 --> 00:30:47.877
this is where I bring my P's and

00:30:47.897 --> 00:30:51.980
T's, people, product, process, tools,

00:30:52.041 --> 00:30:53.583
training, time.

00:30:53.603 --> 00:30:54.784
We just got smoked.

00:30:55.223 --> 00:30:55.904
Here's an example.

00:30:56.005 --> 00:30:58.227
One of the radio stations that I worked

00:30:58.326 --> 00:31:01.150
at, one of our competitors also owned,

00:31:01.930 --> 00:31:02.431
they owned,

00:31:02.451 --> 00:31:04.112
they were a radio station company,

00:31:04.352 --> 00:31:06.094
they owned several radio stations,

00:31:06.615 --> 00:31:07.555
a newspaper,

00:31:08.076 --> 00:31:10.218
and an outdoor advertising company.

00:31:11.492 --> 00:31:12.792
That was helpful.

00:31:12.813 --> 00:31:14.433
We would get beat up on outdoor

00:31:14.473 --> 00:31:15.013
advertising.

00:31:15.054 --> 00:31:16.114
My boss is like, what's going on?

00:31:16.153 --> 00:31:17.115
I go,

00:31:17.134 --> 00:31:18.335
maybe we should put a billboard on top

00:31:18.375 --> 00:31:21.435
of our building bill as my GM going.

00:31:22.096 --> 00:31:23.616
I can't do what you have not.

00:31:23.717 --> 00:31:25.636
I cannot use a tool that you have

00:31:25.676 --> 00:31:26.637
not put in my hand.

00:31:26.877 --> 00:31:28.397
So I don't optimize for it.

00:31:28.498 --> 00:31:31.239
I never thought that was an option.

00:31:31.259 --> 00:31:31.378
Well,

00:31:31.398 --> 00:31:32.439
you should always be thinking outside the

00:31:32.479 --> 00:31:33.019
box, Jimmy.

00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:33.460
Okay.

00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:35.680
Except when I think outside the box,

00:31:35.740 --> 00:31:37.080
I get told can't do that cost too

00:31:37.101 --> 00:31:37.260
much.

00:31:38.580 --> 00:31:39.461
So we go round and round.

00:31:39.602 --> 00:31:40.721
And I understand it.

00:31:41.001 --> 00:31:42.623
But the funny part was if you would

00:31:42.643 --> 00:31:44.684
have walked in six months from now and

00:31:44.724 --> 00:31:47.125
your competition had done the train

00:31:47.145 --> 00:31:48.027
station takeover,

00:31:48.467 --> 00:31:49.166
it would have been looked at,

00:31:49.207 --> 00:31:50.048
why didn't we do that?

00:31:50.508 --> 00:31:50.988
Of course,

00:31:51.048 --> 00:31:53.049
our person that we're aiming for is going

00:31:53.069 --> 00:31:53.569
to be here.

00:31:54.130 --> 00:31:56.852
And the answer was not all organizations

00:31:56.892 --> 00:31:58.452
have the structure to do everything.

00:31:58.692 --> 00:32:00.253
Money is not the only thing that you

00:32:00.294 --> 00:32:00.534
need.

00:32:00.673 --> 00:32:02.795
You need other things to do it and

00:32:02.815 --> 00:32:03.736
to do it well.

00:32:03.816 --> 00:32:03.895
Yep.

00:32:04.721 --> 00:32:05.060
That's right.

00:32:05.161 --> 00:32:07.703
And I think a lot of PT organizations,

00:32:07.743 --> 00:32:10.146
there are some that are so massive that

00:32:10.186 --> 00:32:12.648
there are very strategic marketing leaders

00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:13.150
in place.

00:32:13.430 --> 00:32:15.432
I think a lot of organizations are still

00:32:16.153 --> 00:32:18.316
the founders sort of making decision based

00:32:18.375 --> 00:32:21.818
on what they like or think or whatever

00:32:21.858 --> 00:32:22.220
it may be.

00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:25.162
And and I think the structure isn't in

00:32:25.182 --> 00:32:25.521
place.

00:32:25.801 --> 00:32:26.923
And so that makes it really,

00:32:26.962 --> 00:32:29.224
really hard because a lot goes into doing

00:32:29.265 --> 00:32:31.066
these things to put together an integrated

00:32:31.105 --> 00:32:32.606
campaign, to take over a station,

00:32:32.646 --> 00:32:34.669
to put some kind of average like a

00:32:34.749 --> 00:32:35.648
lot goes into it.

00:32:35.689 --> 00:32:37.089
And I think if you're not marketing,

00:32:37.810 --> 00:32:39.451
you truly don't understand what goes into

00:32:39.491 --> 00:32:40.472
getting this stuff done.

00:32:41.733 --> 00:32:43.096
And so I think the structure is really

00:32:43.135 --> 00:32:44.478
important and that's where we fail.

00:32:44.597 --> 00:32:46.500
And in a small PT organization,

00:32:46.882 --> 00:32:49.905
the marketer is one marketer or two

00:32:49.945 --> 00:32:52.148
marketers are being pulled in five

00:32:52.209 --> 00:32:53.391
thousand directions.

00:32:53.530 --> 00:32:55.012
And so they're not even in the position

00:32:55.053 --> 00:32:56.454
a lot of times to do this and

00:32:56.474 --> 00:32:56.855
do it well.

00:32:57.324 --> 00:32:57.683
Also,

00:32:58.184 --> 00:33:00.366
they're doing other daily activities.

00:33:00.646 --> 00:33:02.627
Like large campaigns are not the only

00:33:02.647 --> 00:33:02.949
thing.

00:33:03.308 --> 00:33:06.791
You're not always throwing a gala or an

00:33:06.832 --> 00:33:07.231
event.

00:33:07.752 --> 00:33:08.593
That is one thing.

00:33:08.673 --> 00:33:10.115
But usually when you do that,

00:33:10.134 --> 00:33:10.934
people are like, well, I get it.

00:33:11.115 --> 00:33:11.715
Like, hey man,

00:33:11.796 --> 00:33:14.498
this gala that's four hours long did not

00:33:14.518 --> 00:33:16.059
take four hours to put together.

00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:18.362
There's a thousand moving parts.

00:33:18.961 --> 00:33:20.103
Because the first thing a lot of people

00:33:20.123 --> 00:33:21.104
do is they walk in and they start

00:33:21.124 --> 00:33:21.785
to tear things.

00:33:21.964 --> 00:33:22.726
Well, why is that?

00:33:22.786 --> 00:33:24.788
That looks different than our brand color.

00:33:24.808 --> 00:33:25.088
It's like,

00:33:25.429 --> 00:33:27.431
that's the only color the cake company had

00:33:27.451 --> 00:33:29.252
for icing.

00:33:29.272 --> 00:33:30.355
And you're like, yes.

00:33:31.955 --> 00:33:32.196
Right.

00:33:33.855 --> 00:33:36.897
How do you spot – how do you

00:33:36.938 --> 00:33:38.839
pay attention to or put your finger on

00:33:38.859 --> 00:33:43.063
the pulse of your ideal person over –

00:33:41.662 --> 00:33:42.823
how do you keep it there?

00:33:43.144 --> 00:33:44.625
I've got an example I can give you,

00:33:45.045 --> 00:33:46.906
but that's the question I'll ask.

00:33:46.987 --> 00:33:48.208
So I'll give my example first to sort

00:33:48.248 --> 00:33:49.209
of give you some context so I don't

00:33:49.229 --> 00:33:50.871
just throw a question under – throw you

00:33:50.891 --> 00:33:51.250
under the bus.

00:33:53.257 --> 00:33:54.178
Culture changes.

00:33:54.278 --> 00:33:55.578
What people like changes.

00:33:55.719 --> 00:33:57.279
Our ideal person ages,

00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:58.601
and those things change.

00:33:59.280 --> 00:34:01.262
If I asked my staff,

00:34:01.403 --> 00:34:02.624
and not just my staff,

00:34:02.663 --> 00:34:04.085
because I'm going back to my radio days,

00:34:04.424 --> 00:34:05.645
if I asked them directly, hey,

00:34:05.685 --> 00:34:07.467
what's Keith, who is our avatar?

00:34:07.707 --> 00:34:08.947
What's he into these days?

00:34:09.289 --> 00:34:11.989
They're trying to justify what they want

00:34:12.030 --> 00:34:13.672
to do by saying Keith likes it.

00:34:15.152 --> 00:34:17.494
So I would always ask indirect questions.

00:34:18.175 --> 00:34:19.675
What was cool ten years ago that isn't

00:34:19.715 --> 00:34:20.076
anymore?

00:34:20.615 --> 00:34:21.757
But if I ask them what music we

00:34:21.777 --> 00:34:24.119
should drop, they get real territorial.

00:34:25.298 --> 00:34:27.019
because they're emotionally attached.

00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:28.360
This is where I'm trying to detach the

00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:29.101
emotion from it.

00:34:29.561 --> 00:34:29.940
So I would say,

00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:32.242
what was cool ten years ago that you

00:34:32.282 --> 00:34:33.342
think is less cool now,

00:34:33.601 --> 00:34:35.182
and what's cool now that didn't exist ten

00:34:35.222 --> 00:34:35.663
years ago?

00:34:35.902 --> 00:34:37.063
Essentially, what I'm asking is,

00:34:38.344 --> 00:34:39.724
what are we doing that we should drop,

00:34:39.804 --> 00:34:40.846
and what are we not doing that we

00:34:40.865 --> 00:34:41.385
should pick up?

00:34:41.606 --> 00:34:42.405
But if I ask them,

00:34:42.686 --> 00:34:43.907
what are we doing that we should drop

00:34:43.947 --> 00:34:44.626
in the reverse,

00:34:44.987 --> 00:34:46.967
I would get whatever they wanted or they

00:34:47.007 --> 00:34:47.248
thought.

00:34:47.387 --> 00:34:49.949
I needed them to think for the user,

00:34:50.028 --> 00:34:50.590
the listener,

00:34:51.289 --> 00:34:52.990
not for themselves and what they wanted to

00:34:53.030 --> 00:34:53.150
do.

00:34:54.050 --> 00:34:56.615
That's really simple, but not easy.

00:34:58.581 --> 00:35:00.625
So how do you do that?

00:35:00.724 --> 00:35:02.088
Any ideas or suggestions?

00:35:02.228 --> 00:35:03.811
I don't think there's a magic bullet,

00:35:03.851 --> 00:35:04.032
but...

00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:05.280
There's not a magic bullet,

00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:06.880
but the avatar, you said it.

00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:09.061
So you need to have documented personas

00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:11.442
and you need to update them regularly.

00:35:11.601 --> 00:35:13.521
And they need to be based on what

00:35:13.942 --> 00:35:17.483
real clients or patients are telling you,

00:35:17.543 --> 00:35:18.282
what feedback.

00:35:18.342 --> 00:35:19.903
It's based on research.

00:35:20.224 --> 00:35:21.543
There's a lot of ways to do this

00:35:21.583 --> 00:35:21.784
now.

00:35:22.585 --> 00:35:24.244
You can put your personas together and

00:35:24.784 --> 00:35:25.505
And test it.

00:35:25.646 --> 00:35:26.266
Ask Claude.

00:35:26.786 --> 00:35:28.186
This is who I'm trying to target.

00:35:28.226 --> 00:35:28.947
This is her age.

00:35:28.967 --> 00:35:29.668
This is whatever.

00:35:30.509 --> 00:35:31.289
Is this correct?

00:35:32.208 --> 00:35:33.429
But there's a human element to it.

00:35:33.449 --> 00:35:35.170
You do need to be updating these personas.

00:35:35.231 --> 00:35:38.032
I would say yearly at a minimum.

00:35:38.072 --> 00:35:39.574
But you need to always sort of go

00:35:39.614 --> 00:35:40.094
back to it.

00:35:40.114 --> 00:35:40.994
And it feels like...

00:35:41.875 --> 00:35:44.856
of silly exercise when you tell a founder

00:35:44.916 --> 00:35:46.516
you need to have a persona or you

00:35:46.536 --> 00:35:47.757
need to have an ICP.

00:35:48.257 --> 00:35:50.217
But you do because otherwise we're just

00:35:50.237 --> 00:35:50.518
going,

00:35:50.938 --> 00:35:52.237
I'm going to do the thing that I

00:35:52.297 --> 00:35:52.597
like.

00:35:52.657 --> 00:35:53.177
Like, no,

00:35:53.237 --> 00:35:54.398
I don't think that's going to work because

00:35:54.438 --> 00:35:55.079
I don't like that.

00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:58.639
Okay, well, are you our target person?

00:35:58.659 --> 00:36:01.360
I would always ask, can you show me?

00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:02.260
And they were like, what do you mean?

00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:04.501
I'm like, show me a moment in culture.

00:36:05.422 --> 00:36:08.043
Show me other people avoiding or doing

00:36:08.083 --> 00:36:08.402
this.

00:36:09.262 --> 00:36:10.943
I love the day when I get hired

00:36:10.963 --> 00:36:11.443
and we're like,

00:36:12.878 --> 00:36:14.460
I ask, start with the end in mind.

00:36:14.539 --> 00:36:15.721
What are we optimizing for?

00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:16.641
What game are we playing?

00:36:16.742 --> 00:36:17.101
And they're like,

00:36:17.521 --> 00:36:18.583
we want people to do this.

00:36:18.902 --> 00:36:19.362
And I say,

00:36:19.523 --> 00:36:20.844
show me how you're doing that now.

00:36:20.923 --> 00:36:21.844
Oh, we're doing that all over the place.

00:36:21.885 --> 00:36:23.286
And I go, bring up your Instagram,

00:36:23.306 --> 00:36:25.106
your website, this.

00:36:26.347 --> 00:36:27.648
Even internal communications.

00:36:27.768 --> 00:36:29.769
Bring up your internal ways of showing me.

00:36:29.869 --> 00:36:32.231
People know that there's paths to grow

00:36:32.251 --> 00:36:32.891
within the company.

00:36:32.992 --> 00:36:33.291
Awesome.

00:36:33.391 --> 00:36:33.713
Show me.

00:36:34.773 --> 00:36:36.074
I get to pretend like I'm a dumb

00:36:36.114 --> 00:36:37.034
five-year-old that day.

00:36:37.494 --> 00:36:41.458
really petulant why why where if i got

00:36:41.498 --> 00:36:43.900
a click and read between the lines it

00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:46.523
doesn't exist it exists in your own mind

00:36:46.682 --> 00:36:48.804
is where it exists so you should be

00:36:48.844 --> 00:36:53.128
constantly testing for that icp which

00:36:53.168 --> 00:36:54.931
sounds you know again all these terms make

00:36:54.971 --> 00:36:56.351
it sound like there's not a peop they're

00:36:56.391 --> 00:37:01.496
people but it is right uh anything you

00:37:01.536 --> 00:37:03.038
what what are you what are you looking

00:37:03.097 --> 00:37:03.619
at more

00:37:04.715 --> 00:37:06.378
now and what are you looking at less

00:37:06.418 --> 00:37:10.802
i'll give an example um i'm seeing i

00:37:10.862 --> 00:37:12.583
saw a statistic i'll find it was like

00:37:12.682 --> 00:37:16.567
ninety three percent of ai applications in

00:37:16.626 --> 00:37:22.632
healthcare never leave the pilot phase so

00:37:23.213 --> 00:37:25.574
i'm not saying ai isn't powerful i'm

00:37:25.614 --> 00:37:28.396
saying it is not a plug and play

00:37:28.657 --> 00:37:29.998
genie gets out of a bottle

00:37:31.684 --> 00:37:34.965
Yeah, this situation was at MIT.

00:37:35.005 --> 00:37:37.425
I'm really forgetting last year or within

00:37:37.445 --> 00:37:38.085
the past year,

00:37:38.126 --> 00:37:40.266
there was the study exactly that across

00:37:40.306 --> 00:37:40.726
the board,

00:37:40.806 --> 00:37:44.188
ninety five percent of pilots do not get

00:37:44.288 --> 00:37:47.909
out of out of pilot or don't succeed.

00:37:49.210 --> 00:37:52.010
And I think or I know I've read

00:37:52.050 --> 00:37:54.311
the study, but it's sort of common sense.

00:37:54.351 --> 00:37:55.311
It comes down to

00:37:56.231 --> 00:37:57.652
They don't have the structure in place to

00:37:57.711 --> 00:37:58.333
support it,

00:37:58.853 --> 00:38:00.353
and they're not using it for the right

00:38:00.373 --> 00:38:01.793
things, among other things.

00:38:02.634 --> 00:38:05.614
And I think marketing specifically,

00:38:05.733 --> 00:38:06.375
it was found,

00:38:06.514 --> 00:38:11.896
was the least successful of all of the

00:38:11.956 --> 00:38:12.795
applications.

00:38:12.936 --> 00:38:15.177
So people who were solely using AI for

00:38:15.217 --> 00:38:18.458
marketing found the least value,

00:38:18.838 --> 00:38:19.597
I guess you could say.

00:38:21.056 --> 00:38:22.757
But I think it's how people were using

00:38:22.798 --> 00:38:23.579
it for marketing.

00:38:23.898 --> 00:38:25.380
Because what happens is, you know,

00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:26.681
you and I have both worked with people

00:38:26.701 --> 00:38:27.222
that are like, oh,

00:38:27.242 --> 00:38:28.001
just have AI do it.

00:38:28.021 --> 00:38:28.483
And you're like, yeah,

00:38:28.523 --> 00:38:29.302
it doesn't work that way.

00:38:31.224 --> 00:38:31.385
Right?

00:38:31.405 --> 00:38:32.905
Like this is AI is coming for all

00:38:32.925 --> 00:38:34.626
of our marketing jobs, but it's not.

00:38:35.007 --> 00:38:35.447
You're right.

00:38:35.467 --> 00:38:36.668
That's exactly what it was.

00:38:36.887 --> 00:38:37.588
MIT study,

00:38:37.648 --> 00:38:39.389
ninety five percent of enterprise AI

00:38:39.449 --> 00:38:43.612
pilots fail to deliver measurable ROI.

00:38:43.693 --> 00:38:44.253
Isn't this funny?

00:38:44.273 --> 00:38:45.835
We started talking about we started today

00:38:45.894 --> 00:38:48.215
talking about how marketing has to prove

00:38:48.336 --> 00:38:50.097
ROI or you just yank the budget.

00:38:51.208 --> 00:38:52.369
You see a lot of people talking, oh,

00:38:52.550 --> 00:38:54.530
I've got twice the quota and half the

00:38:54.550 --> 00:38:56.251
budget and a quarter of the staff this

00:38:56.271 --> 00:38:56.490
year.

00:38:57.170 --> 00:39:00.353
But MIT saying enterprise AI pilots,

00:39:00.913 --> 00:39:02.152
ninety five percent.

00:39:02.414 --> 00:39:03.454
How, Andrea?

00:39:03.534 --> 00:39:04.974
All of them come on their slide decks

00:39:04.994 --> 00:39:05.414
that say

00:39:06.333 --> 00:39:08.574
It's going to reduce this by eight,

00:39:08.635 --> 00:39:08.835
you know,

00:39:08.875 --> 00:39:10.795
six hours a day and free people up

00:39:10.855 --> 00:39:12.615
and people will be running in fields of

00:39:12.675 --> 00:39:13.715
sunflowers and be,

00:39:15.036 --> 00:39:16.376
burnout's going to be gone tomorrow.

00:39:16.396 --> 00:39:17.237
What are you waiting for?

00:39:17.356 --> 00:39:19.398
And yet we're seeing, yep,

00:39:19.858 --> 00:39:21.719
ninety-five percent of enterprise AI

00:39:21.759 --> 00:39:24.920
pilots fail to deliver.

00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:26.599
Because leaders are going,

00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:28.201
we have to use AI.

00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:28.800
Why?

00:39:29.061 --> 00:39:30.081
Because everyone else is.

00:39:30.181 --> 00:39:30.661
For what?

00:39:30.820 --> 00:39:32.342
Because everyone else is.

00:39:32.442 --> 00:39:35.302
And so they throw some AI things into

00:39:35.322 --> 00:39:36.123
their organization

00:39:36.666 --> 00:39:40.829
There's no guidance as to what, how,

00:39:40.869 --> 00:39:42.210
there's no consistency,

00:39:42.291 --> 00:39:43.512
there's no oversight.

00:39:43.911 --> 00:39:46.213
They're not setting expectations or trying

00:39:46.253 --> 00:39:47.974
to figure out how this is actually going

00:39:48.014 --> 00:39:48.434
to help,

00:39:48.474 --> 00:39:50.056
how this is going to integrate different

00:39:50.077 --> 00:39:51.518
teams or using different AI.

00:39:52.318 --> 00:39:56.360
And your outcomes are only as good as

00:39:56.481 --> 00:39:59.123
the strategy behind the technology.

00:39:59.182 --> 00:40:00.844
It's the same thing I remember the early

00:40:00.884 --> 00:40:01.664
HubSpot days.

00:40:02.144 --> 00:40:03.565
What was that?

00:40:03.585 --> 00:40:05.146
See, I wasn't around in early HubSpot.

00:40:05.166 --> 00:40:05.726
I mean, I was,

00:40:05.766 --> 00:40:06.708
but we weren't using that.

00:40:06.728 --> 00:40:07.507
That wasn't our bag.

00:40:07.748 --> 00:40:08.688
So early HubSpot date.

00:40:08.708 --> 00:40:10.309
So HubSpot, for those who don't know,

00:40:10.369 --> 00:40:12.331
it's a CRM and marketing automation.

00:40:12.492 --> 00:40:14.273
It is, you know, best in class.

00:40:14.313 --> 00:40:17.635
Like I was and still am a strong

00:40:17.695 --> 00:40:19.076
proponent of HubSpot.

00:40:19.596 --> 00:40:20.317
It helps you.

00:40:20.496 --> 00:40:21.277
It really helps.

00:40:21.297 --> 00:40:24.298
Like I've plugged HubSpot into EMRs and it

00:40:24.338 --> 00:40:25.800
sort of gives you that end to end.

00:40:27.340 --> 00:40:29.262
And everyone was like, oh my goodness,

00:40:29.302 --> 00:40:30.463
you need HubSpot.

00:40:31.083 --> 00:40:32.264
And great, you do.

00:40:32.324 --> 00:40:34.387
But if you don't have the people to

00:40:34.586 --> 00:40:36.409
use it well or implement it or put

00:40:36.429 --> 00:40:37.731
it into place and you don't have the

00:40:37.771 --> 00:40:41.153
process in place to use it well,

00:40:41.373 --> 00:40:44.478
it's it's not going to solve anything for

00:40:44.518 --> 00:40:46.199
you.

00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:48.202
Have you ever used Notion?

00:40:48.302 --> 00:40:49.083
I have used Notion.

00:40:49.621 --> 00:40:51.302
I came up with the phrase that Notion

00:40:51.443 --> 00:40:52.023
is an ocean.

00:40:52.063 --> 00:40:53.583
I remember working in an organization

00:40:53.603 --> 00:40:55.125
where everything was in Notion.

00:40:55.786 --> 00:40:56.385
And I was like, hey,

00:40:56.425 --> 00:40:57.166
how do we do this?

00:40:57.226 --> 00:40:57.967
Like, it's in Notion.

00:40:58.007 --> 00:40:59.047
And I'm like,

00:40:59.088 --> 00:41:00.608
you might as well just say,

00:41:01.009 --> 00:41:02.690
figure it out yourself, dumbass.

00:41:03.210 --> 00:41:03.949
It's tech.

00:41:04.070 --> 00:41:05.251
It's like a tech.

00:41:05.510 --> 00:41:06.632
I dislike Notion.

00:41:06.831 --> 00:41:07.592
It's a junk drawer.

00:41:07.913 --> 00:41:09.414
With companies that are like, oh,

00:41:09.474 --> 00:41:10.074
make a Notion.

00:41:10.094 --> 00:41:10.514
And I'm like,

00:41:10.693 --> 00:41:12.936
I don't need to put it in Notion.

00:41:13.056 --> 00:41:13.916
I think we're good.

00:41:13.936 --> 00:41:14.175
Yeah.

00:41:16.606 --> 00:41:17.847
It looked really cute.

00:41:18.407 --> 00:41:20.329
And for people who have,

00:41:21.050 --> 00:41:22.952
if someone were in charge of Notion,

00:41:23.251 --> 00:41:24.592
that's the problem, I also think.

00:41:25.434 --> 00:41:27.275
When everybody's in charge,

00:41:27.795 --> 00:41:28.536
no one's in charge.

00:41:28.956 --> 00:41:29.998
So if someone says,

00:41:30.077 --> 00:41:31.259
this is how we put things in there.

00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:33.240
Listen, it's in the library.

00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:35.760
Where, I don't know,

00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:36.900
because there's no librarian,

00:41:36.961 --> 00:41:40.423
nothing gets shelved properly and make fun

00:41:40.443 --> 00:41:41.143
of it all you want.

00:41:41.164 --> 00:41:43.125
The Dewey Decimal System actually helps us

00:41:43.164 --> 00:41:44.405
figure out where to find crap.

00:41:45.206 --> 00:41:46.646
Just having the information is not

00:41:46.807 --> 00:41:47.228
valuable.

00:41:47.268 --> 00:41:48.949
We have to be able to find it

00:41:49.009 --> 00:41:50.550
when we need it.

00:41:50.869 --> 00:41:52.690
I learned that the hard way when I

00:41:52.710 --> 00:41:54.211
was renovating my house for the first

00:41:54.251 --> 00:41:54.452
time.

00:41:54.492 --> 00:41:55.112
Bought a house,

00:41:55.632 --> 00:41:58.074
owned a hammer and a screwdriver,

00:41:58.474 --> 00:42:00.076
but then I started acquiring tools.

00:42:00.876 --> 00:42:02.336
And I had a room for my tools

00:42:02.617 --> 00:42:04.478
and I had no way of putting things

00:42:04.737 --> 00:42:05.318
in the room.

00:42:05.699 --> 00:42:07.179
So I would be like, I own this.

00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:08.300
I paid money for this.

00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:09.221
Can't find it.

00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:09.981
Doesn't matter.

00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:10.621
Right.

00:42:11.262 --> 00:42:11.422
Right.

00:42:11.581 --> 00:42:12.782
It's like the so the high tech

00:42:12.822 --> 00:42:14.123
organizations use Notion.

00:42:14.262 --> 00:42:16.204
I think other organizations use OneNote.

00:42:16.985 --> 00:42:18.306
You know, do you have you have?

00:42:18.465 --> 00:42:18.686
Oh, yeah.

00:42:18.726 --> 00:42:19.525
No, it's in OneNote.

00:42:19.606 --> 00:42:21.586
The front desk staff has access to

00:42:21.686 --> 00:42:22.047
OneNote.

00:42:22.268 --> 00:42:23.949
Well, are they are they looking at it?

00:42:23.969 --> 00:42:25.068
Do they know where to find it?

00:42:25.268 --> 00:42:25.869
Correct.

00:42:26.190 --> 00:42:26.369
Yeah.

00:42:26.429 --> 00:42:27.329
So you have the right tool,

00:42:27.371 --> 00:42:28.170
but doesn't do anything.

00:42:28.523 --> 00:42:29.704
All right, you've got a hard stop,

00:42:29.744 --> 00:42:30.684
so we'll get you out of here early

00:42:30.844 --> 00:42:32.045
because I don't want to go right from

00:42:32.146 --> 00:42:32.806
one meeting to another,

00:42:32.925 --> 00:42:34.186
which should be also something you do for

00:42:34.206 --> 00:42:34.626
your people.

00:42:34.907 --> 00:42:36.088
You should have a ten to fifteen minute

00:42:36.128 --> 00:42:36.427
buffer.

00:42:37.288 --> 00:42:38.128
So parting shots,

00:42:38.208 --> 00:42:39.489
what's something you're paying attention

00:42:39.530 --> 00:42:42.170
to in the next seven to thirty days?

00:42:43.010 --> 00:42:44.391
Oh, boy, a lot of things.

00:42:44.492 --> 00:42:46.373
I'm still paying attention to AI because I

00:42:46.432 --> 00:42:48.273
want to know how to use it and

00:42:48.373 --> 00:42:50.655
how how not to use it.

00:42:50.715 --> 00:42:52.416
So I know sort of general and maybe

00:42:52.456 --> 00:42:53.416
I've said that one before,

00:42:53.496 --> 00:42:55.617
but that's that's sort of where I'm where

00:42:55.637 --> 00:42:55.878
I'm at.

00:42:56.260 --> 00:42:58.503
Yeah, I do a lot of,

00:42:59.304 --> 00:43:00.806
I had great advice a long time ago

00:43:00.826 --> 00:43:02.487
and I forget who coined this phrase was,

00:43:02.929 --> 00:43:04.530
don't listen to what people say,

00:43:04.590 --> 00:43:05.331
watch what they do.

00:43:06.550 --> 00:43:08.610
So a lot of these AI companies are

00:43:08.710 --> 00:43:09.751
still hiring humans.

00:43:10.231 --> 00:43:11.632
What a weird idea.

00:43:11.692 --> 00:43:13.871
It's because the answer is not all or

00:43:13.931 --> 00:43:14.313
nothing.

00:43:14.672 --> 00:43:16.072
The answer is going to be both.

00:43:16.913 --> 00:43:20.195
And maybe don't fall for that scarcity

00:43:20.235 --> 00:43:20.934
just yet.

00:43:22.034 --> 00:43:23.596
I think even some of the best AI

00:43:23.635 --> 00:43:26.416
companies would rather take on the right

00:43:26.697 --> 00:43:27.577
clients and

00:43:28.324 --> 00:43:29.126
than the wrong ones.

00:43:29.306 --> 00:43:30.786
Because if they take on the wrong ones

00:43:30.827 --> 00:43:31.847
and they have a bad experience,

00:43:31.867 --> 00:43:33.849
that person's going to shout it from the

00:43:33.889 --> 00:43:34.670
rooftops.

00:43:35.271 --> 00:43:37.112
So I think the smart ones are trying

00:43:37.132 --> 00:43:39.893
to weed potential clients out if they're

00:43:39.914 --> 00:43:41.375
not the right fit.

00:43:41.996 --> 00:43:43.577
You can find Andrea on LinkedIn.

00:43:43.597 --> 00:43:45.539
We'll put the link to her in your

00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:46.059
show notes.

00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:47.699
Are you still writing regularly?

00:43:47.721 --> 00:43:49.181
You were throwing some bombs around for a

00:43:49.222 --> 00:43:49.442
while.

00:43:49.981 --> 00:43:51.521
I was, and then I stopped.

00:43:51.581 --> 00:43:54.882
We had a school vacation and a snowstorm,

00:43:54.922 --> 00:43:55.802
and then I was kind of like,

00:43:56.262 --> 00:43:58.222
I just don't have the energy to be

00:43:58.282 --> 00:43:59.782
here.

00:43:59.822 --> 00:44:02.023
There's been so much noise on LinkedIn,

00:44:02.123 --> 00:44:04.164
but I have started writing semi-regularly

00:44:04.204 --> 00:44:06.465
again, so I'm getting some traction.

00:44:06.885 --> 00:44:07.244
Excellent.

00:44:08.025 --> 00:44:09.065
Andrea, appreciate the time.

00:44:09.144 --> 00:44:10.405
Thanks for doing this.

00:44:10.425 --> 00:44:11.146
We'll be back next week.

00:44:11.505 --> 00:44:11.865
Thanks, Jimmy.

00:44:13.413 --> 00:44:14.492
That's it for this one,

00:44:14.773 --> 00:44:16.434
but we're just getting warmed up.

00:44:16.914 --> 00:44:18.813
Smash follow, send it to a friend,

00:44:19.034 --> 00:44:20.693
or crank up the next episode.

00:44:21.215 --> 00:44:22.235
Want to go deeper?

00:44:22.574 --> 00:44:24.695
Hit us at pgpinecast.com.

00:44:25.956 --> 00:44:28.155
Or find us on YouTube and socials at

00:44:28.175 --> 00:44:29.215
pgpinecast.

00:44:29.615 --> 00:44:31.896
And legally, none of this was advice.

00:44:31.976 --> 00:44:33.717
It's for entertainment purposes only.

00:44:33.757 --> 00:44:35.356
Bullshit!

00:44:35.396 --> 00:44:35.976
See, Keith?

00:44:36.177 --> 00:44:37.237
We read the script.

00:44:37.538 --> 00:44:38.177
Happy now?