Healthcare Marketing Doesn’t Work—Until You Fix the Experience

0:01 you're listening to the pt pinecast where smart people in healthcare come to make noise here's your host jimmy mckay and uh good monday morning welcome to healthcare marketing doesn't work which is something we hear all the time in healthcare but today we're looking at three stories that suggest something else might actually be true marketing works Healthcare just keeps doing it weird. Today we've got new research showing patients now shop for healthcare like consumers. Who knew? We did. An insurer telling patients to avoid the largest hospital in Vermont. Okay. And Wendy's convincing thousands of people to apply for a one hundred thousand dollar a year hamburger tasting job.

0:44 Andrea, let's start with the big shift happening in healthcare marketing. So did you hear about this story? New research out of Deloitte and they're consultants. So you hired them to pay them to tell you things that you didn't want to know and then you don't do anything about it. Marketing is now entering a major shift. Research from Deloitte shows patients now behave much more like consumers when choosing healthcare. I feel like that's something you've said fifty seven times. They compare providers, they read online reviews, they check reputation scores, they look at convenience, which means something important. Marketing matters more than ever. But health care organizations still treat marketing like it's nineteen ninety eight billboards, generic, generic, everything, generic ads, generic social.

1:31 God, watching social clips from some health bigger. It's like the bigger the healthcare organization, the weirder and more mayonnaise flavored it is. I've been in meetings where this was the thing that came away. The title of a series was Now Offering World-Class Orthopedic Excellence. What does that mean? I have no idea. Meanwhile, patients are making decisions based on... based on real tangible everyday things like Google reviews, convenience. They'll look up how far away something is, what time it's open, transparency. And they just this morning, word of mouth, just this morning, I responded to two different posts in my little area's local Facebook group.

2:15 So here's the thing. When healthcare says marketing doesn't work, what they usually mean is advertising doesn't fix experience. You're working. I can't shine poo. So here are a couple questions. Number one, from what you see, do you see healthcare organizations still confusing marketing with advertising? Where does the disconnect start? I just did my inhale that we talked about. Okay, where do we go first here? So some organizations are still confusing marketing with advertising, and some are savvy or because someone has told them ten million times that it's different.

3:03 But I do think healthcare organizations are still in some way sort of confused about what marketing is and what it can actually bring to the organization. And I think the takeaway, what you were sharing, like we could go work for Deloitte, right? Like we've been banging this, beating this drum forever. And we are finally at this time where it's consumer-driven healthcare we've been talking about for years, but consumers are actually driving healthcare now because they are doing all of those things. They're checking reviews and they're looking at your website and they're talking in their Facebook group and all of that. So I think there are still some, founders or execs in larger organizations who are either confused about marketing or sort of like just don't want to take it seriously because they don't understand it.

3:52 Isn't that the funniest case? Yes. We avoid what we don't know or we avoid what makes us feel icky. I don't like it. Therefore, I'm just going to stay away from it. I feel like the organizations that lean into things like this. Isn't this why you hire smart people, though, in theory? Well, in theory it is, but in practice you hire the smart person. You know, it's funny. You say like Deloitte, these consultants, they come in, you pay them a whole bunch of money and then you don't listen to them. Because I think, you know, like you need to talk to someone who knows something about this thing, but then it either still confuses you or seems too scary or is going to cost too much money. You're not sure if it's going to work. And so we're not doing anything.

4:34 So let's run down the checklist. We can poke fun all we want, but I don't want to just be... Neither do you. I want to just poke fun for poke's sake. Although poking fun is fun. What do people actually check? I mentioned a few things. Google reviews. I just did a short form video the other day that said, if I opened a clinic tomorrow, here's the first five things I would do to essentially just... exist online and none of them cost more than a hundred dollars and i was like i need you to do these five before you start yep and i laid it out so where where would you go if someone's a solopreneur maybe you own a clinic or maybe you own three and you're like but i don't have a vip of mark a vp of marketing what what are let's you have to reverse engineer what are they checking What are they checking?

5:21 Making TikToks for TikTok sakes is not a good idea, right? But if people are on TikTok, then it is a good idea. So my question is, what do you think patients are actually looking at and paying attention to? What are they paying attention to? They're paying attention to reviews because we are in this consumer focused health care. And I just talked with a prospect the other day about the importance of reviews. Right. Like there are a bunch of things you need to have in place, but reviews are one of them. And that's part marketing and that's part operations. Like someone to tell them that they need to. uh, lever or encourage them to leave a review, then you need to enable them. You need to send them the links via text, via email, scan it at check, whatever it is like you need the pathway.

6:06 You need to give them, there needs to be a process in place. So there needs to be an internal, uh, process. And then there needs to be a very consumer friendly, very easy way. Like don't make me have to log in or do something. Yeah. and time it appropriately um you know we talked about this last week like i received that email and i hadn't even had my appointment yet and so it's like a day after is it two hours after whatever it may be um so they're looking at reviews they're looking at your website yes they're they're what are they looking for and this is not to go too deep but like tell me what they're looking for what's what's the sort of this checking the wind of a website it's So they are looking for... So something they don't know they're looking for, but they pay attention to is like, do you look professional and real?

6:50 Number one, do you look like it was made... And I'm not even going to knock Squarespace because they make some pretty good templates. You can't screw those up. Some really... expensive organization's website look like trash. I'm sorry. Not not not OK. So but they may not know that. But that is just this is why when I say like you're not being compared to the clinic down the street, you're being compared to all the other consumer experiences they have. Like, what is a good website look? And they may not. If you go like, hey, are you checking out a clinic's brand on their website or the UX? Like they're like, what are you talking about? But they are right. That's just subconsciously something they're paying attention to. But they're looking at like, what do you do?

7:30 Can you solve this problem for me? And then can you get me an appointment ASAP? And this is like the friction stuff we talk about. Like, can I schedule online? But I just want to know what you do and can you solve my problem? There it is. Like, that's it, right? And ideally, I can look to see if there's a clinician who specializes in my thing, right? Like, that'd be beautiful and wonderful. But I think basic table stakes is like, what do you do? Can you solve my problem? Where are you located? And then how do I... Can we operationalize this? Without me having to take nine steps, can this bring me to... Can this bring us together? Exactly. If you can't do that... Click a button. Yeah, your website fails.

8:10 Like... I would add in faces of humans and triple, triple, quadruple bonus points if they're actual humans who actually work for your organization. Yes, they are not stock photos. And I think too, it's like headshots of clinicians, but not boring headshots of clinicians. Like, you know, real people. Take your doctors, put three of them next to each other, tickle them. Hey, oh, look at that. Look what happened to your face muscles. They smile a little bit. Like three quarter pose is very serious.

8:54 But show me some emotion. Because this is a purchase. I could go to you. I could go to someone else. And right now I look at it. I'm a hockey player. This is a face-off. You're going to win it or you're going to lose it. We got all the way to your website. And you're going to fumble it because you put generic stock images on there. Okay. I mean, box checked, everybody. Box checked. Or they don't look approachable. Like this is an occupational hazard of being a marketer. Like if I look at a clinician or provider on a website and I'm like, ooh, that person does. Creepy. Yeah. Don't get your book by its cover. But we do. We do. There's an entire job called book cover designer guy. That's a job. And it's because we're big dumb animals. Act as such. All right.

9:34 So I've got askforusewebsite.com. reviews website social so here's the thing like we talk about like don't do social just to do social but you need to have a presence right like it is like we are no longer in the times where it's a nice to have you need to have it and you need to show up in a meaningful way so you don't need to be on every social channel in fact i i encourage you to not be on every social channel But you need to be where your patients or prospective patients are. Or if you're looking to acquire talent, you need to be where the talent is and you need to have a strategy behind it. So this isn't like the side of someone's desk job.

10:15 And this isn't your digital marketing managers doing four hundred and seventy five different things. Like you need someone who is dedicated, who knows how to do this, because I'm going to go like. all right, what do they got going on here? Oh, are they responding? What's their personality? Like, how am I going to feel going to this place? And am I getting value from, from any of this stuff? Or is it like, just like everyone else? Yeah. Agreed. Is there any... So we've got reviews, not just asking for them, but making it easy, making it simple for me to... Gosh, making... Could you imagine if you sat down and you were like, I had this really glowing review, but I didn't do it. You're like, why? And you're like, because it was like six steps and I quit halfway through, or didn't know where, or there was no sort of prompt as to that you cared or you wanted me to do that.

11:00 It's wild in my eyes. You put so much time, effort, and money into creating a great experience, had that person go through the experience, and they're not going to tell anybody else. Why? You didn't ask. Right. And I think the other thing on reviews, too, is what I look for, if there's a negative review, did someone respond? And how did they respond? Yes. Tomorrow on PT Breakfast Club, my friend Dave Kittle just did a short form video, Chef's Kiss. He got a one star review. I'll talk. We're going to dive deep into it tomorrow. But he was like, we screwed up. We didn't follow up on this person's communication. This one star review is justified.

11:41 brilliant marketing. Yep. Cause it's real. Cause no one would do that, which is exactly why Dave did it. He was like, no, we screwed up. This isn't us normally, but yeah, no, this is true. We screwed up. And that's so redeemed. Like you redeem yourself. You leave with that guy. Why would you not believe a guy who's trashing himself? Right. No, we didn't screw up. This person didn't click. No, he was like, no, this is right. We, I, it fell through the cracks. Our operations broke or whatever it was. Yep. And it's okay to see it right. Like no one gets it right. One hundred percent of the time. But to scroll through and see like five star, five star, four point nine, whatever, and then see like a one star and then the founder or owner or whoever it is, it's like this was our fault.

12:22 I'm really sorry. Here's how we're going to fix it. You know, rather than like we don't have a record, like we can't talk about, you know, patient confidentiality, like just be like, yeah. How old are your kids? My kids are four and seven. You don't need to teach kids for some reason. I've noticed this. Like when you're like, hey, you did that wrong. They just instantly, from what I've seen, are like, yes, I did. It's like in our operating system. As soon as we hit a certain age, we're like, we just defend ourselves to the end, to the bitter end. So it is... It is a juxtaposition to hear someone just go, yeah, no, that was my bad. I completely own it. You're right. And people are just like, it really is jarring. It's like, it's the record scratch.

13:04 And then you'll listen to anything that person says because you're like, you're owning a mistake? Hang on a second. Really? Okay. Got it. Wow. In twenty twenty six, simply owning an operational mistake can earn you attention. So that's the bar. That tells us where the bar is, right? The bar is not low. The bar is on the floor. If you have like a question about your billing or something and you call, you already know like they're going to give you a hard time because you have a question about your bill, right? Like the bar is so low. Yeah, it's a great, he's like, uh-oh, he has the screenshot of the review. It's hard to see on the screen. We're going to dive into this tomorrow.

13:45 And he's like, yeah, client rips us apart, posts one-star review. We let this client down. There you go. The next phase in the marketing, again, I just said I'm not going to dive too deep into it, but it's so great, is that imagine he goes back to this person and is like, you're right. How can we make this up to you? And they do. What do you think that person will say about you forever? well this is the thing they know they become a promoter like that's their story like started off crappy and this guy made it up for me he said you're right and then he went over the top that's marketing That's marketing.

14:26 But what needs to happen then, and this needs to be operationalized, is everyone then needs to make sure they are providing a five star experience. But they should anyway, right? Stop what you just said there. Do you want more five star reviews? Andrew, we're going to pretend I'm Deloitte and you're the client. You just paid me forty billion dollars to come write a report for you that you will read the first seven pages. Andrea, hey, Jimmy from Deloitte here. Do you want to know how to get more five-star reviews? Yeah, of course I do, Jimmy. Provide more five-star experiences. The invoice is on the way.

15:10 Welcome. Yes, yes. And that's not to throw operations under the bus. Operations is hard. It's hard. This is the thing. I always and increasingly am like, marketing cannot be successful if operations is not. But they need each other. Yes, they do. If you're not making anything, I can't tell anybody about it. Exactly. They need each other. That being said, too bad that's the problem like it's a job you picked i'm sorry so like operations needs to figure it out and then marketing needs to figure theirs out and then we need to work together and go here you go and if marketing says hey operations we have this bad process it can't just be like well that's just the way it is like it's not making bad it's making bad stories yeah sal saying google reviews are yet another example what he calls a little bit in twenty twenty six if you're just asking a patient after an eval to be so kind and pleased with your review, you're asking too much.

16:08 QR code. They even have those like dot things where you tap. Yep. Right? Also train your staff. Hey, here's what to look for. Here's what to listen for. If this person is exuding love for someone who just provided service, it sounds like, it sounds like you had a great experience. Would you? Would you ever want to tell other people like you what your experience was so that they could get that service too? That's worth money, what I just said there. I'll invoice you. Don't worry about it. As a clinician, why is that so hard or uncomfortable?

16:52 Here's why. I think because... There's going to be people out there who are smarter than me that are in neuro. It's going to be like left brain, right brain thing. Like when you're in provider mode, you're in your left brain mode. Left is logic. Yeah. So you're like, oh, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. So maybe that's it. I'm just making up. I think that's it. No, I do. So I've had mixed experiences with this. And clinicians have... We've done... We've had these standard operating procedures and we're training and we're role-playing and it's like, okay, pretend I'm the patient and I said this thing. That's your cue, right? But it's like, I'm just not comfortable because I went to school to do this to help people, not for them to tell me how great I am.

17:35 That's the second part. Now you're asking a provider... Hey, do you mind bragging about me? Listen, I'm very extroverted. That's icky to me. I won an award at CSM. I talked about it zero times. Want to know why? It feels weird. It feels weird. It feels weird. So... It's never not going to be weird. So let's train everybody. I would have no problem being like, hey, did you have a great experience with Andrew? And you're like, yeah. I got to be honest. It goes a long way and will help us help more people if you share an honest review. Do not say anything that is not true. It's easier. When people win awards or write books, I tell them to come on my podcast.

18:17 Because it's just psychologically easier when Jimmy says, tell me about the book, rather than you turn a camera on and be like, I wrote a book. It sounds like you're patting yourself on the back. So that's never not going to be weird. So do you want more reviews? Bank it off the wall. I have to ask. But that can be part of the process. Your front desk person is not your provider. Yep. And this sort of goes, I think, back to front desk being part of your marketing system. They have to be part of the process for cancellations. They need to be part of the process for reviews. They need to be part of the process to not lose someone who calls in and has a question, whatever it may be. They have a big job. Huge. It's a big job.

18:59 It is. And when that fails, everything else looks, feels, smells, tastes bad when that goes wrong. Yes, when operations fails, this place sucks. And when operations goes well, it's still like, oh, sorry. It is quite literally a thankless job because when you do everything right, it's expected. Now it's a C+. But when it fails, you're on the hot seat. That sucks. That is the job, though. That's not going to change, guys. But we can make people scream about you. Hand them the megaphone. And I think we can control what we can control, right? And we can control that.

19:39 We can't control if my insurance didn't cover a thing and now I'm taking it out on you because you're telling me how much I owe. But we can control a review because it was a good process. To review the tactical things from this section we're taking away, ask for reviews and make it part of the process. It's got to be easy. Here's a test. Bring in an eleven-year-old and be like, hey, can you figure out how to lead a review? And when they can't, your process sucks. Because the eleven-year-olds, they're not dumb. They're smart. Your website needs to look legit. Ask someone who's not in healthcare who you know will tell you the truth to look at your website. and say how's our website what does it look like what does it feel like what does it smell like what does it taste like rachel is saying yeah i agree it seems like more and more people it seems like more and more of the pts are the front desk people too i've asked when overheard praise to scan qr code now good yep yeah don't disagree uh website ask someone what how's this feel can you book don't just hey if you were gonna book a thing how would you book it do it can you do it time them Be on social with purpose and meaning.

20:52 If you can't figure out what meaning you bring, if you can't find out what meaning, you're in healthcare. There is meaning quite literally falling off trees. And then finally make it part of the process. So those are the four takeaways. Yep. Okay. Today's show is brought to you by... The billboard industrial complex. They've actually bought ads on our show. Are patients choosing healthcare based on reputation, online reviews, and convenience? Sure. But what if instead you bought a really big sign and put it next to the highway? The billboard insurance, the billboard industrial complex, because nothing says trusted healthcare provider like a smiling stock photo and the phrase compassionate care.

21:34 Buy a billboard today at billboardsrus.com. All right. So healthcare marketing is evolving. And that means it's also getting more awkward. This is like a news story. Sometimes it turns into a corporate fight. This happens a lot with like YouTube TV. I have YouTube TV or cable providers. They'll be like, ESPN is making it hard for us. And I'm like, I don't need you fighting in front of me. Right. Settle your settle your shit. I don't need you running promos like local cable provider telling me how ESPN, this major conglomerate, is trying to lowball you, other major conglomerate.

22:15 I need you to step outside, settle your shit. I'm giving you a hundred dollars a month. I'm giving you a hundred dollars a month. What do you think I'm going to do? Grab a pitchfork and a torch and rage over to Bristol? It's not going to happen. But there's a contract dispute between Blue Cross Blue Shield of Vermont and the University of Vermont Medical Center, which is the largest hospital in the state of Vermont. The insurer, Blue Cross Blue Shield of Vermont, launched a public campaign. Did you see about this? I did not. They launched a marketing campaign. The insurance company. And the campaign is like, it's talking about the hospital's costs.

22:56 I wanted to be like, Why are those costs so high, insurance company? Blue Cross? An insurance company ran a marketing campaign telling people, maybe don't go to the biggest hospital in the state because of the costs. Are the costs in the room? Are they with us now? Can you see them, Blue Cross? How much did the marketing campaign cost? Could we have maybe given some treatments instead of the mark? These are marketing people telling us, bad spend, go spend it on something that we can then show to make good things happen.

23:36 Now, technically, this is marketing, which is why it's on the show. But it's also a perfect example of healthcare doing marketing badly. Badly. Because from the patient perspective, this is awkward and confusing. And scary. Yeah. And scary. Patients don't want to watch hospitals, insurance companies fight each other. They want answers to three questions. You touched on it. Where do I go? How much does it cost? And then finally, the big under, can I trust you? And when you're fighting, this is why it's awkward to watch parents fight. Kids are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're supposed to be the ones who are on the same page and telling me what to do and you know everything. Now I'm watching you fight and disagree. Does this mean parents don't know everything?

24:18 Insurance companies and healthcare organizations, they're just like, we know everything. We're always doing the best for you. Now we know you're lying, but at least be consistent about your lies. Now you're just pointing fingers at each other? Awkward. I would love for people, if there's anybody in Vermont who's seen this, I don't even know how long it's been going. I should have researched that. So healthcare marketing should reduce uncertainty. That's probably a good lesson from our last segment too. What is the goal of being on TikTok or a website or whatever? It is to reduce uncertainty. Reduce uncertainty. increase clarity that's it that's your job you don't sell anything if your selling is icky yes it is great then your only job reduce uncertainty increase clarity it's your only there's your needle that's the needle to move when healthcare turns marketing into corporate public warfare just patients lose trust in both sides at this time in twenty twenty six when we don't trust anything public scrutiny and public public scrutiny is up public trust in healthcare in general is at a checks notes all-time low So this is a great move, Blue Cross Blue Shield Vermont.

25:21 Great idea. So Andrea, I don't even know where to unpack this one, but how damaging can public fights like these be for trusted healthcare in general? It's damaging. So we in Rhode Island, we experienced something similar. There was not a marketing campaign, but there were communications around it. What does that mean? So United, like only the largest insurer, right? Like United was having some contract issue with the largest hospital in Rhode Island, specifically as it relates to Medicare. Like talk about confusing people. So like it was basically like we're not going to cover you, Medicare. Right. So there were communications around it like it was sent to Medicare population.

26:05 There was some language on the website and, you know, some flyers like taped up. And so, but it was super confusing. People were talking about it. There was a lack of trust. And then when it was resolved, people were still confused. And it was like, well, I can't go there. And it's, I was like, first of all, you can go to any hospital. They can't refuse treatment, right? Like it doesn't matter what insurance you have, but how do you come back from it? Like, this is what the damage is, right? Like, how do you come? Like, so now are we paying for a marketing campaign to then say, go like, oh, just kidding. We're happy again. We got back together, you know? No, you can't. You've got a hundred X effort to get the needle to go in the other directions now. Yeah. Because I learned I can't do that, which means I can't do that.

26:46 So I won't do that. Right. I was already confused about whether you how insurance works with you anyway. But now you're telling me like I can't. And but now I can't like, wait a minute, like what's going on? I mean, I would say not to be political, but when it's happening in public, like right now, I mean, gosh, who was the Lancet? I'll bring up the article. They're saying that the policies and changes that the USH Health and Human Services are doing will take generations to change. I just talked to a school leader the other day and she's like, we still require vaccines, but we're like, and I was like, I don't got good luck.

27:35 No, no, no. I know people in the local school district nurses who are like, your child cannot come into this building unless they have these things. My doctor said, I didn't have to do that. I didn't. Do not answer to your doctor. I answered to the New York State Board of Health. Right. I answered to the governor. So that tiny human will not be walking. Well, you're keeping like now I'm going to like watching these people go back. I'm going to sue you because you're and she's like, I'm a school nurse. I make sixty one thousand dollars a year taking care like think this is a different conversation. Right. You want to have fun? Do you want to have fun and also want to get insanely angry?

28:15 It's public record. Go to your local school board website and just Google like how much my school nurse makes, right? Write that number down and be like, well, they got an easy job, right? And I'm like, okay. And now figure out how many kids are in that elementary school And then multiply that by how much you think a child's life is worth and be like, that person's got Q-tips and a stethoscope and they're in charge of them just six to seven hours a day times every school day for sixty eight thousand dollars. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. What could go wrong? What could go wrong? So you either have people who are great, willing to take that job at that salary because they're like, I want to do good.

28:57 Or you have people who can't get it. It's just it's insane to me. How many millions worth of dollars is an elementary school if you added up all the human life's worth? And you got one person being like, I am in charge of all these lives pretty much. Right. Let's pay this person as little as possible. Yes. And equip them with as little as possible. What could go wrong? And then be mad when something goes wrong. But this like vaccine thing and like the overall, like this is where it sort of goes back to. There's opportunity for real reputable clinical organizations to like be on social and be the voice of reason.

29:38 Yeah. Right. Like, are we supposed to be vaccinated or we're not supposed to? Like, and that's just one example. Like, this is where an organization can get on social and not have mayonnaise flavored ice cream because compliance said you have to be in this box. Like, they can be the ones to go like, hey, you trust us, right? Like, we are experts. Here's what you should be thinking about. Scary. If you're a clinic owner dealing with insurance issues, how do you communicate that? without scaring patients away, should be like the next question. Because talking about insurance complexities in a Facebook post or a, you know, a twenty-eight second video, like, I like taking on complex projects, but that's hard.

30:21 Like that's hard. It's hard. I've experienced this in the past, not in the PT clinical setting, a different clinical setting and having to create communications to say. So first of all, it becomes like a targeted communication, right? Like this isn't let's blast out a marketing campaign. It's let's identify which patients have this insurance. And let's send them a personalized communication and go like, here's here's what's going on. Here's the impact to you. You don't have to do anything, maybe. Or if you do have to do something, here's what it looks like. And then can we over communicate with them? Because we know how many times it takes to actually get something through to someone. And then when it's resolved, you need to make sure you're communicating and going like, hey, by the way, it's resolved.

31:04 Yep. So, right. Like it's a marketing campaign is not the answer. Do you know how many times, though, I worked my first job out of PT school, the clinic owner wanted to be more active on social. But he didn't. He wanted people to see him. Like the African proverb, there's two reasons to climb a mountain. One is so you can see the world. The other is so the world can see you. And it's like, this guy just wanted people to see him. He was like, I am great. And I want everybody to know how great I am. And I'm like, I get that. But let's do it the other way. Let's just teach people stuff and be there for them.

31:46 And many a time, I went into work at eight in the morning and I'm still wiping whatever out of my eyes and I'm not even awake yet. And he's like, Jimmy, Jimmy, come here. Review this big, long Facebook post I wrote. I spent two hours writing it. And I was like, okay. And I'm two sentences in and he's raging against P.T. Mills. So I did my Andrea. Okay. What is the purpose of this? And he's like, the world needs to know that PT Mills are bad. And I was like, okay, let's pretend your seven hundred and fifty word Facebook post that no one's going to get past word seven.

32:28 But yes, they're going to dig in and read your novel. They now agree that PT Mills suck. Now what? He's like, they'll just know that I'm not that. And I'm like, did you say that anywhere in the, no. So why don't we, do you feel better now that you've written it? I hope so. Good. Delete it. Don't share it. Or share it with your friend. Put it in your journal, right? Put it in your journal. This is why we journal. You're venting. This is why we journal. Now, pretend those people already believe that. Talk to them now. Pretend. It's called suspended disbelief. Have suspended disbelief that they now agree with you. Talk to them about that.

33:11 You have three choices. And I know people get mad at me when I use dating analogies, but this is a good one, right? So you got three options. I'm at a bar and there's a young woman I'd like to talk to. I have three options. Number one, I can tell her why the guy down further down the bar shouldn't go out with him. I should spend my whole time raging against this guy. Like definitely don't take the drink from that guy. That guy sucks. Look at him. Look at his shoes. Look at his shirt. Look at him. He's a jerk. I saw him. I saw him kick a puppy on the way in. Don't talk to that guy. That's option one. Okay. I mean, if you've convinced her not to talk to him, she might just be like, great. Not to talk to anybody.

33:52 Option two. This is a good one. Talk about yourself. How much money you make, how many friends you have, that you were on the high school hockey team, what kind of car you drive, the size of your TV. Talk about yourself. That's a great idea. That is a great idea. We've never met any of those guys. Never. Or now here's a radical idea. Option three. Talk to her about her. Why don't we try that? So talk to the patients about them. I see this all the time, like posts that start with we here at... Do you know what's worse though? I've called it breaking the spell. And I see this all the time and I don't want to be a mansplainer.

34:35 But they'll start out with what we're talking about, which is talking to the audience about the audience. And then halfway down, they'll go, and that's why here at Callahan Auto, we only make the finest brake pads. And I'm like, fucking had them. You had me. I was nodding going, yes, I do agree with that. And then halfway through, I was like, oh, you think this is how to, in one post, generate... affinity, know, like, trust, generate trust, and then cash in on trust. Right. In one post. That's like, Andrea, I want to... I'm in upstate New York. I want to eat some apples.

35:17 Big apple country. We call it the big apple, Andrea. We make a lot of apples. I'm going to go outside and plant an apple tree with a seed. I guess they're from seeds. I don't know. And then I'm going to go back after lunch. I'm going to eat some apples. No, no, no. There's some time between plant the seed, eat the apple. And people don't get it, which is why the bar is not low. The bar is on the floor for you to just do something and be better than four thousand percent of everybody. Right. And I think that's part of the confusion with... I want to be on social. Social is another channel for me to promote my business. And I've said it. I think I talked about this at a conference like a million years ago is social...

36:01 media is not a marketing channel it's a patient communicate like it's a patient and prospective patient communication channel so it's not for you to get on there and go like i'm the best pt clinic in the world we're evidence-based and we do these things no one cares like i don't even know what that means as a you know putting myself in their shoes It's a way for me to, so you don't know who I am and that I can help you. Oh, I have that problem. They're talking about that thing that I have. Yeah. I have wondered about that. Oh, and then subconsciously, but not so subconsciously they, they understand that. So when I have that flare up, I'm going to go there. Yep. That's it.

36:42 That's as simple as that. But we get looked at in meetings like, where's the, where's the, where's the sell in this? And you're like, what's the CTA? Like what's clicking to book an appointment after you show them this morning. A major organization reached out to me and were like, I've been just... This is a random dude. I looked at the org chart, went to LinkedIn. I was like, who is this dude at this organization? He is not a major dude. But he's like, I've been tasked with doing ABC. And he's like, I've just been listening to you for a year. Talk on LinkedIn. This is also a thing. Be on multiple channels. He's like, I see you type on LinkedIn and the videos and I feel like you get it. And I'm like, but I never said...

37:24 Book a call. Click the link below to book a call. Every time you type that, I want you to hear me using cheesy radio voice in your brain because that's what the audience thinks. I'm here for you. Evidence-based care. Click on the link below. It is cheesy. Right. Because it's cheesy. It's cheesy. Like if there's a like if we could just do away with evidence based as an aside, like tables. Yes. I would assume that it's evidence based. Right. Like let's open a parody clinic. Let's call it. We what's opposite of evidence based. We made it up.

38:04 It's fake. Sounds it rhymes. So it must be true. Right. This treatment rhymes. Look it. They're all three words in a row. Rhyme. Must be true. Rhyme. M&M based. Rhymes. We can get words like orange and banana to rhyme, so it must be true. We get it, man. You're a doctor. I'm sure as hell hoping it's evidence-based. What? What are you talking about? You know what? Now the fact that you're talking about it... I'm a little nervous. What do you do that isn't evidence-based? Oh, nothing. Sorry. Nothing. Nothing here. We're just telling you. We do everything here. Imagine your mechanic was like, we use all the right parts. It's like, well, shit. Now I'm one. You're talking about it an awful lot.

38:45 Why? I don't trust that now. I just thought they were always the right parts. To me, I will say, my car is being fixed right now. It's getting some auto body work. What'd you hit? I didn't hit anything. It hit me. What hit you? It's fine. But I had to sign something and check a box that said they use OEM parts. And I'm like, I wouldn't have thought about it. I would have assumed that you use OEM parts. It's literally what you... It's like manufacturer... Original equipment manufacturers. It's not secondary market. Right. And I was just like, cool. Why are you making me sign this to say that you use original parts?

39:27 Because apparently it's not standard practice. All right. So lesson here, maybe... they're insurance companies they're i don't know i don't want to stereotype but there's a pile of um why why why are you airing your grievances in public this is not festivus for the rest of us here stop doing that uh this this segment brought to you by healthcare negotiation theater why quietly negotiate contracts when you can turn it into a public marketing campaign featuring dramatic press releases Passive aggressive messaging and patients wondering what is going on. Healthcare negotiation theater because nothing builds patient trust like corporate drama in public.

40:07 All right, enough healthcare chaos. I like to now steal things from outside of healthcare to get out of this. We love saying this to break out of the silo. Let's look at a company that understands something healthcare often struggles with. And in my opinion, and it sounds like yours, that attention comes before marketing. Attention is the very first thing. It is where the rubber meets the road. Marketing can be the tire, but where the rubber meets the road is the attention-getting engine. Wendy's understands attention. If you disagree, I will fight you in the comments all day long. Whether you like them or not, let you know about them. They have decided that in order, you knowing about them is number one, you liking them is number two.

40:52 Yep. I ain't going to make you like me. If you don't like square burgers and Frosties, you're going to hate us. Great. Got it. So this came from Ad Age covering a Wendy's campaign. And I did see this, but sort of like didn't look into it. But they launched a campaign offering a job. Okay, we're not talking about burgers, fries, or Frosties. They offered a hundred thousand dollar a year job called chief tasting officer. This is so smart. It is. And I have a spin already. I have a spin and people are already fighting me on Facebook. Cause I already, I sort of posted about it.

41:33 Fans apply online. They create content for you. Stop. You've already won. People are not only talking about you. They're talking about you in public. So other people can see it. Wendy's wins already. The internet just exploded. So they create content. They talk about Wendy's online. The internet went wild. Why? Because Wendy's understands something healthcare often just skips in the meeting, which is attention isn't bought. You can buy ads. That doesn't mean you're buying attention. That means you lit money on fire and maybe it worked and maybe it didn't. I'm not saying ads are bad, but attention needs to be put in them. A torpedo with the wrong type of whatever in it, it's a bad torpedo. An ad with wrong creative, bad ad.

42:15 They didn't promote burgers in this campaign. Devious, kind of like a ricochet. I like it. They created a story people wanted to participate in. Participation beats promotion. You can also do this wrong and we'll get into that. Healthcare marketing usually talks at people. Brands winning today invite people into the story. Wendy's held the door open and said, do you want this job? So when clinics share real patient journeys, community impact, recovery stories, notice none of those said evidence-based or anything about your letters after your name, just about the audience, marketing suddenly works a lot better. so here's how you can do this poorly and i see this pop up every once in a while where a local news outlet will do their awards their superlatives best pizza place best pt clinic and you go online and you share it and you're like hey click on this to vote for us for best pt clinic in the area.

43:11 And I'm like, that doesn't feel good. This goes back to what we're talking about earlier, which is like, this is you asking me to brag about you. This isn't you asking me if I had a good experience. Do you see the difference? Exactly. Wait a minute. You guys are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You said public reviews. Yes. How you ask about it is wildly important in the process. Can you brag about us? Vote for me. Why? Why? Why? Did you ask me... If you had a great experience, would you be so kind as to let people know so we can win this contest? But also, I don't want to help you win the contest. I want to tell people about you because I had a great experience.

43:52 Two different things. So Wendy's had this job thing. What are your thoughts on Wendy's, the chief tasting officer? I think it's so brilliant. So I started writing a post about Wendy's the other day because their social media team needs a raise. They understood the assignment over and over again. They understand the assignment. And I started to write about this and get sidetracked. And it was so I think this is potentially in response to. um mcdonald's ceo oh yeah so someone in marketing goes hey like we need to record you mcdonald's ceo taking a bite and saying our burger is good or whatever and so then wendy just goes on to their social on onto mcdonald's social media and is just like roasting them and and making fun of them um and it's so great and this is sort of in response i think maybe it's i don't know some like the timing lines up so this is just brilliant to go, Hey, wait a minute.

44:50 We're going to put out this job. You just have to like taste our food and then create some content and we'll pay you a hundred. Like here's the website. How many people are talking about this now? Us on a show that doesn't have anything to do with fast food, but does suddenly because it's about attention. I'm on the website now. So if you're watching a live stream, you can see it. But landing page, Wendy's chief tasting officer about the role. Title, chief tasting officer, company, Wendy's. I love the fact that they bring it into in parentheses. Yes, that Wendy's. Like they're bringing in a little bit of their sass, which they're known for. Pay, one hundred grand. Job type, dream, location, remote. Keep talking, travel, light, mostly to your local Wendy's.

45:31 And or your couch. And or your couch. A little sass in there again. Required credentials. A human mouth. A pulse. Opinions. Creativity. Taste. Like, is this real? Yes. And then they give an explanation. Wendy's is hiring a chief tasting officer. You'll help bring the vibes, taste, and creativity to the company in ways no one else can. It's got a benefits section. It's sort of like reiterating over and over and over again. And now, how to apply. Upload a video showing us why your... Perfect for this position. I pause there for dramatic effect because this application and this campaign is about you first, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, then Wendy's. That's why it's brilliant.

46:11 It's about you, the person reading this, then dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, about Wendy's. They could have screwed this up if they said, make a Wendy's commercial telling us why Wendy's is great. Exactly. You would have screwed up. That's where the CEO could have pooched this. Big time. Because where's the CTA? Where's the ROI? The ROI is the amount of eyeballs that you're getting. So I'll put a video showing us why you're perfect for this position and bonus points if you show Wendy's branding products, food, or restaurant. Oh, so like... Subliminally. Can you? Sure. Do you have to? No rules. Just make a video. Why you're perfect. But it's giving you a hint. Hey, if you're like recreating but making funny the Big Arch McDonald's guy, we're going to find that funny.

46:57 But you're eating one of our burgers. Were you the first person to dip a fry into a Frosty? Are you the coolest person in the friend group? Have you rizzed up an entire room of suits and lived to tell the tale? Tell us. Show us your tasting skills and you could become our chief tasting officer and then where you can upload the video. I cannot wait to see the results of this because this happened relatively recently. This happened just in the last week. I cannot wait to see the results of this. So good. So smart. And you're going to see it for however long that page is up because someone's going... Yeah, I'm making videos anyway. Why not jump on the train? Because even if I just want to be seen or Wendy's is going to share the funny ones, I can be funny.

47:38 This campaign is brilliant. It's brilliant. It's brilliant. And so, of course, there's not compliance in Wendy's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it. But it is so smart. And if healthcare just took like... Five percent of this. Five percent of this. five percent and went wait a minute what's a thing and it doesn't have to like you don't have to try too hard right like short form video like right people are just like hey man make a video but then consistently like have your brand be approachable and like right like so people people know this is Wendy's like this is what Wendy's does so I went online and I said so I'm sort of like being subverse I didn't go online saying Wendy's is doing this how would you do this I went online and said how many new patients would you need at your clinic to justify paying and i said paying a marketing agency a hundred thousand dollars and the conversation has already devolved into that we would never do that you would never would never do that that's insane because they can't deliver I need to get it on this combo.

48:53 I've been away. Bat shittery is a real level of tomfoolery. Tomfoolery is very mild. Bat shittery is. The idea being, what if you took this campaign to your patients and you just said, hey, we need a chief. What's a funny, what's a fun, what's the chief tasting officer idea? version for a clinic patient experience, patient liaison. You got to make it sort of sound like a job, but have a little salt twist, like chief patient. We'll figure that out. But the idea being I'm a real patient, just like Wendy's, I'm a real customer.

49:36 And this is why I'm perfect. You're pitching yourself to the clinic to say, Hey, I will help you create the media because you're bad at it. I'm a real patient. I know what I was looking for before I got here. This is why you're going to pay me a hundred grand. And then my job is going to be for the next three hundred sixty five days. Tell people about you. And they'll believe me. This is the modern day Jared from Subway. Correct. On social media. Jared lost a bunch of weight or something. You have to re-explain that because I think a large percentage of the audience has aged out of Jared from Subway. So, so Jared, this guy, Jared ate Subway for a period of time, like every day and lost a whole bunch of weight.

50:21 That's the short of it. And so Subway hired him. This was like pre real social media. Uh, Subway hired him and he was on every commercial talking about like how great Subway is and the whole thing. Um, and so he was their spokesperson essentially, but this was like user generated content. They just had to pay him for this. It was user-generated content in an era where there was no user-generated content. It was user-featured content. They could have, I don't know, Andrea, they could have talked about the evidence-based turkey. Turkey's not evidence-based. Something about Subway in France or something, they can't call the Subway stuff, they can't call it bread.

51:02 Is it like a bread-like product or something? Because the sugar content or something is so high. I don't know. But anyway, yeah, the idea being, who do we want to get people to eat this more of and what do we want them to know? The idea was it's convenient and it's good for you. And look, this guy went from being really, really big to skinny. And now he's Jared from Subway. Right. He started from Subway and we can do this in healthcare. Like we can really do this. So find someone who has something that they're willing to talk about. It's not a sensitive thing, right? Like they've signed off and, and it's all good. And they talk about it and they're not promoting your clinic necessarily. Like they're just talking about their experience. And their lack of savvy in creating media is actually a strength.

51:45 It is. Because now it looks like Susie from Middletown made the thing. Hey, I'm Susie. I wasn't able to walk. And now look at me go. Follow me for more fun tips. Like you could have so much fun with this. Not to pat myself on the back, but I did this fifteen years ago in radio. Here was the rub. There needs to be a problem, right? Or something to react to. So I was given free ads in a local weekly entertainment newspaper. We had a good relationship with the local newspaper. Whenever they wanted to promote something, they would come on the radio. Symbiotic relationship. So I'm sitting there one day. I have a centerfold color article, full page, that I get to use.

52:31 And I think I pitched back to them. I'm like, I need six. And they're like, six? And I'm like, I'm going to make this thing so big for the paper, six is going to be like a steal. I'm like, what do you got? I go, here's my problem. I need to hire more part-time DJs. But... I want to make it fun. So like, okay, now we lucked out. We called our weekend DJs, very creative, weekenders. Because they work on the weekends. Do you see what I'm saying? I can see that. It's a radio term. I don't want to talk over your head, but it's weekenders because they work on the weekends. And the newspaper was called The Weekender. Cool. Good. So I'm like, we already have name alignment. So the campaign was, we're looking for our next weekender.

53:15 Do you want to be our next weekender? I published the full-page ad was a job ad with a script. Like, hey, do you want a job working at the fourth best radio station in Northeast Pennsylvania? We then poked fun at ourselves. Do you want to make state minimum wage? Do you want to work nights, weekends, and holidays? Do you want to be the seventeenth in line for Nickelback tickets when the radio station gets them? Do you want to get CDs from three years ago? Then you're in luck. So number one, we had to show that we were poking fun at ourselves. Check.

53:55 Then we posted a script. Well, if you're still reading and you want this job, record yourself reading this script. And it was like Mad Libs. It was like, hey, I'm blank from blank, and I'd be the perfect blank for blank. We made it funny. And for radio people, we got a bunch of audio. Now the campaign moves on the air. Now you're to The Weekender, the newspaper. Their visual campaign is now audio. And they're playing with each other. And people now go, hey, my buddy's thing. And I would tease it up. I'm going to play two of them at the top of every hour. So get your suggestion in. And it closes next week. So there was scarcity, time. and interact and then of course I called friends at other radio stations around the country and I'm like do a crazy version of what would the crazy lady from your town and then we had crazy versions of them Like, whoa.

54:45 And then I was like, I don't know. Vote. Text this to this to tell us who you think. And then next phase, we took the top ten or whatever, and I brought them on the air with me for an hour, and they got to host my show for an hour. And then people voted. And then da-da-da-da-da. And now we're making videos. So video, text, air, paper, print, da-da-da. It was the reality show on the radio. And we didn't hire one person out of that. I hired like four because I found four good people. And now people were like, oh, that's great. I wanted that girl to win. I wanted that guy to win. Can you do that with your patients? Guys, we're different than medical doctors. You know that, right?

55:26 Like, I don't know if we would do this if I was if I was a medical doctor practice. Maybe I wouldn't do this. This feels P.T., And we're not leaning into that. We're leaning away from that. And I need you to stop doing that. And I think your bank account and your patients and your local community would appreciate if you did. So that was our weekender promotion. And we did it after that every year, every year. And people looked forward to it. People were like, how do I get the job? And I'm like, well, And here's what I had to give up. I had to turn to my boss and be like, we're going to onboard three people and pay them state minimum wage. Because my boss was always big. He's like, Jimmy, where's your bench? If two people quit, are you out? And I was like, that's a good point.

56:06 You're always hiring. Always be hiring. And that was great. So I used a campaign to solve my problem. But I wasn't faking it. It was a real campaign. Wendy's is stealing that funder. My question is to you, how are you doing that? So, oh, Chief Recovery Officer. just came to me to be this chief recovery officer. Could you do that? I don't know. I feel like a clinic stealing that this takes effort because everybody out there is thinking, how am I going to operationalize that? I'm just telling you when your competition does it, they're going to beat you and you're going to be confused. And I mean, that's it, right? It's like a lot of things take effort, but then someone does it and then you can't do it. Like it doesn't, it's not cool.

56:48 Well, that's why I said, and I'll get to my post after this, I'll share, I'll tag you in it or whatever. But I was like, how many referrals? So that's the ultimate thing. Wendy's is now, let's close the loop. Wendy's is now saying, number one, this competition, just us doing this, has already paid for itself in a hundred thousand dollars worth of attention. Can we just be very, are you in agreement on that? Before they ever hire their chief tasting officer. Absolutely. Multiple, multiple times what this chief tasting officer will pay. Now they get to take the victory lap and go, remember that job we were giving away? This is Karen from Iowa. She's our chief tasting officer.

57:29 Even if they run with her for a month, they hand her a hundred grand and go, thanks. We win before it starts. Yep. How much content do they, I mean, it's, Karen, we're going to fly you to the headquarters and we're going to bang out fifty pieces of content in a weekend, give you a hundred grand. And if it goes well, we'll call you back in three months and we'll do it again. But you keep the hundred grand and we'll put you on the website. It'll be fun. And what is a hundred grand to Wendy's versus Karen? Correct. Now, that's why my question with the post was to a clinic. How many referrals would you need to generate justify hiring your chief tasting officer. And that's going to vary from setting, location, clinic size, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

58:13 I understand that. I understand that. My job is just give you potential solutions. I make suggestions. Andrew makes suggestions. You make decisions. But my point is, this is a way that you could do it well. So I don't know. You would have to net enough... And you're going to decide whether this is worth it because then you still need to operationalize it. I'm not poo-pooing that. There is still some effort behind this. But if you could do this in your town, your community, and steal attention, I don't know. Do you think that would echo? Yes. Because it's not just how much an evaluation or a plan of care is going to bring in. It's LTV. It's lifetime value.

58:54 Exactly. And I mean, I think that's just the last piece I'll say in the operationalize is you can keep doing things that don't cost a lot or don't have a lot of effort to operationalize but are not providing any return. There you go. Or you can put effort into a thing, whatever that thing is, doesn't have to be this thing, whatever that thing is, which means operationalizing it, maybe putting some dollars behind it, whatever, maybe not. I don't know. And actually getting some return. There's a threshold. Here's the thing. Everybody else is doing so little that you doing this would put you in the upper echelon. It would bat shit confuse people.

59:34 They'd be like, what is this? This can't be real. Isn't that great? When someone sees your thing, it's so different. People immediately think it's fake. That's why when Wendy's on that landing page wrote Wendy's. Yes, that Wendy's. Like, this is real. It's on Wendy's.com. Yep. Yes, this is real. So great. All right. Parting shots for today. What's your takeaway? We covered a lot. I'll go back to stop talking about yourself. Oh, please. And you're evidence-based. Get rid of that word. Evidence-based. Evidence-based. My clinic is bound by the rules of gravity.

1:00:14 Yes. Thank you. Yes. Great. Making me nervous. I would say start with the end in mind, which is one of the habits of highly successful people. So if you're like, we need more people to know, like, and trust us. If the answer is reviews, ask for them and make it simple. We want to look like we're respectable. Then look respectable. And your website can't look like a nine-year-old did it with, you know, although a nine-year-old will probably do better than a lot of these organizations. If you think your audience is on social media, be there with purpose and meaning. It needs to lead with purpose and meaning. Has to. And finally, understand that your goal is to put together a process to do this and give that to someone as their actual job, right?

1:01:00 Because this is actual work. I'm very sorry. I got to pick a fun job. All the jobs were available on the first day and you decided to pick a not fun job. I like to make noises and videos. This is my job. It's a job. Empower someone to do it. All right, Andrew, we're back next week. Who the hell knows what someone will do until next week? But we'll be back with more Healthcare Marketing Doesn't Work until you do that. That's it for this one, but we're just getting warmed up. Smash follow, send it to a friend, or crank up the next episode. Want to go deeper? Hit us at pgpinecast.com or find us on YouTube and socials at pgpinecast.

1:01:40 And legally, none of this was advice. It's for entertainment purposes only. Bulls**t! See, Keith? We read the script. Happy now?