Bringing Vestibular Care to the Masses: The Story of Vestibular First

WEBVTT

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natural yeah no I should all

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right I hit record um and

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again the intro will come

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later the big fancy intro

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and I'll come to you um but

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so we can just we'll just

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start this is the first uh

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first of all this is the

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first duo that we've had on

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the show in this format and

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then the definitely the

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first husband and wife so

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you guys are starting off

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on a good foot you guys are

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two firsts here so

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congratulations helena and

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patrick esmond welcome to the show

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Hi, thanks for having us.

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All right, let's start off with this.

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We're going to go macro to micro.

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Since we're talking to

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people who've run into a problem,

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they've tried to overcome

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or solve and created a solution for us.

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Let's hear the story,

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which I'm sure you get no

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matter where you go and

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people find out what you do.

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How did you come up with the

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idea for Vestibular First

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and the infrared goggles

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that help solve problems

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for clinicians all over?

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So how'd you come up with

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the idea and what problem

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were you trying to solve?

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And what inspired that ever

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so important first step?

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Who wants to take that one?

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That's a big triple question.

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Sure,

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I'll start and then I'll probably

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hand it off to Patrick.

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So the idea came out of, as they say,

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necessity.

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And that's because I have

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been doing vestibular care

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for fifteen years, give or take.

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And I have had the

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opportunity to use infrared

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video goggles as part of my practice.

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And I had had a period of

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time where I had not used

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them before that.

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So I very much was aware of

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the difference.

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uh not just what the

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literature says but what my

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own personal experience

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kind of verified is that

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they're really essential

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and to do my best job I

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wanted to have them and so

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I was working in a clinic

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that had some so that was

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great and then I needed to

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change jobs for you know

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kind of life reasons and I

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went to a clinic that had

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never had a vestibular

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clinician so of course they

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didn't have goggles

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And so I asked my bosses, my new bosses,

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like, can I have this equipment?

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This is really important.

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And they said, how much is it?

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Tell us more.

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And so I did my due

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diligence and showed them the options.

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And they said,

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we can't afford any of these.

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And so I was pretty disappointed.

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And I was talking to Patrick about it,

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as you do talk to your

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spouse about your life.

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And I said,

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I want this new job and this

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works for our life.

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as a couple and a family,

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but I really need this

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equipment and they can't get it for me.

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And you know, what do you think, you know,

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you're made anything like that?

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I know it might sound unusual,

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but I was thinking maybe we

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could try to figure out a solution.

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Um,

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and so that's the problem we were

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trying to solve was an

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affordable option for

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equipment for best practice

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for vestibular care.

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And that definitely inspired

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Patrick to take the next

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step and I'll let him tell about that.

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Yeah.

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Sure.

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So yeah, Helena came to me and said, hey,

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I want this job,

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but they need this equipment.

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And Ian, to that point,

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I don't remember even

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knowing about infrared goggles.

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Maybe it had come up at some point,

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but it wasn't like on the

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daily discussion.

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But we basically,

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we went up to her existing

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clinic that has the goggles,

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and she just kind of gave me a tour.

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My background actually,

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I do have a background in photography,

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as well as IT and electronics.

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So I looked at it pretty

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simply and was like, you know,

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I just need to get eyes up on a screen,

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you know, without,

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certainly there are more

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advanced options of eye

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tracking and charting and stuff, but

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from what was shown to me it

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was pretty much just eyes

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on the screen so I I also

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noticed that the goggle she

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had was a repurposed diving

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goggle so I kind of it

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hinted at the opportunity

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that there was some

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off-the-shelf components

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that could be used to make a a prototype

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So that evening I went on Amazon,

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found some off the shelf parts.

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So I found a VR goggle that

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you actually take,

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you put your own phone into.

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So it's really just a shell.

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It doesn't have a screen.

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I gutted that and I got an

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infrared camera also on

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Amazon and I put it in the

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place where your smartphone would go.

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And so that way the camera

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was looking at the eye

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plugged it into the computer,

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and I had a very rough,

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certainly not pretty and not functional,

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but I had a very rough

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version of eyes on a screen.

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And that happened in one night, really.

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So this was all taking place

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in one session after work

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in one night that you sort

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of came up with this rough prototype?

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So yeah, we went to her work.

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I ordered some parts the

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next day and then probably

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a day or two later when all

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the stuff from Amazon came in, um,

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I put it all together.

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Then, uh,

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she woke up one morning and I actually,

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my son wakes up a little early,

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so I had him do a test video as well.

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Um, so I had a, a,

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a non me version up there and, uh,

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Yeah,

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and that's kind of what sparked the

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idea that they could be

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accessible and affordable.

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I like that.

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So I don't want to go forward with that,

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like just highlighting a few things.

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And again,

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you've told this story numerous times.

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But Helena, you didn't just...

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do what maybe a lot of

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people would have done

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myself included which was

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sort of complain about the

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problem right you sort of

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like initiated by

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presenting it to someone

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that you know likes to

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solve problems hey look at

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this problem that I have

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that maybe we could solve

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and then patrick because

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this is maybe a problem

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solving comes with it comes

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with your background it's

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probably something that was

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a little itchy for you that

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you might have wanted to scratch

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But you also came to the

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problem with and I'm going

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to use a pun here with a

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fresh set of eyes and you

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were able to sort of break

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the problem down to.

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So the problem trying to

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solve is how do I get eyes on a screen?

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OK,

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if I understand that problem and you said,

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you know, Jeff Bezos for the assist,

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can I get these parts in

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the next twenty four hours

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and we can have a working prototype?

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That's a pretty good way to

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approach a problem.

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So let's go back to that moment now.

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So now you've got a working prototype,

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right?

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It's not pretty, but it's working.

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What were the biggest challenges, Patrick,

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that you encountered in

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early stages of developing your product?

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And then how'd you overcome

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those early friction points?

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So the biggest challenge

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that we had in the very

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beginning was light blocking.

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So being able to create an

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environment where the eyes

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are occluded from the outside world.

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And that's something that

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off-the-shelf VR goggles

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They don't do it as well.

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They don't need to either.

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You're spending most of your

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time looking at the screen.

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A little bit of light coming

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in around the nose or around the sides,

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that's not really a problem.

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So the cushion that it came

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with did have Velcro on it,

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so that's good.

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And so my first task was,

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how do I make a more robust,

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flexible cushion that can

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still be cleanable,

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so something that could be

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on the patient's face,

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and then something we can manufacture?

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So I found a YouTube

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tutorial on how to sew a donut.

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like how to make a doughnut using cloth,

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which essentially is what a cushion is,

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just kind of an oval cloth.

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And so I drafted out a

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cushion using this idea of

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how to stuff it with foam

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instead of the pillow fluff.

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And I was able to learn,

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I taught myself sewing,

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and then I also taught

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myself how to make a

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doughnut to then make a

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light blocking cushion.

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That was certainly the number one thing.

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And the other piece was the

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VR goggle that we bought

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internally also had light coming in.

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So I had to design three-D

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printed parts that would

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fit in the place.

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So for example,

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you would take the lenses out

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And in the slot where the lenses went,

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I built these little

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columns that actually would

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prevent light from coming

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in and around the corner.

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So I did design and test

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those pieces to be

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compatible with this

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off-the-shelf goggle that

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we were mainly taking apart.

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But, you know,

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getting light is tricky and

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it bounces around a lot.

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So getting it light-proof

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was probably the biggest

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technical challenge on what

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to get working.

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And now I've got to have Helena chime in.

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Clinically, why is light matter?

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Why is Patrick learning how

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to sew a donut?

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Why is light getting in so

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important clinically for

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this thing that you're

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trying to create to even begin to work?

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Sure.

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uh so the research uh shows

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that when we are assessing

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a patient who might have

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vestibular issues of some

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kind whether they're

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stemming from the inner ear

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or the brain um you know

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there's going to be

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associated eye movements we

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are looking for that could

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be indicative of certain

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pathology and some of those

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would be suppressed

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in room light because our

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brain essentially is trying

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to help us feel better and

00:09:55.504 --> 00:09:56.745
not feel as much symptoms,

00:09:56.784 --> 00:09:58.245
but those are the same eye

00:09:58.265 --> 00:10:00.226
movements that we want to

00:10:00.307 --> 00:10:01.706
use to help with diagnosis

00:10:01.907 --> 00:10:03.508
so we can sort out what's

00:10:03.548 --> 00:10:04.649
going on and then of course

00:10:04.749 --> 00:10:05.369
what treatment would be

00:10:05.389 --> 00:10:06.188
appropriate for that.

00:10:06.249 --> 00:10:09.211
So yeah, pretty critical to, you know,

00:10:09.250 --> 00:10:10.591
removes visual fixation.

00:10:10.610 --> 00:10:11.652
So this is back in the

00:10:11.672 --> 00:10:14.072
literature for like over a

00:10:14.113 --> 00:10:17.274
hundred years and there then kind of

00:10:18.452 --> 00:10:19.974
some advancements over time

00:10:20.014 --> 00:10:20.975
that have allowed us to

00:10:21.076 --> 00:10:22.297
sort out how to do this.

00:10:22.317 --> 00:10:24.038
And then, you know, in our case,

00:10:24.097 --> 00:10:25.139
how to make it more affordable.

00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:26.240
So now you're starting to

00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:27.000
lay out all the different

00:10:27.380 --> 00:10:29.222
problems or hurdles you have to overcome,

00:10:29.263 --> 00:10:29.383
right?

00:10:29.403 --> 00:10:30.224
A hundred years ago,

00:10:30.244 --> 00:10:32.086
we understand if you could

00:10:32.105 --> 00:10:33.086
eliminate room light,

00:10:33.527 --> 00:10:34.668
you start to see more of

00:10:34.707 --> 00:10:35.928
the pathology or a chance

00:10:35.969 --> 00:10:37.149
to see more of the pathology,

00:10:37.269 --> 00:10:38.871
except I don't know about you guys.

00:10:39.192 --> 00:10:40.452
I can't see in the dark.

00:10:40.533 --> 00:10:41.494
So we've removed the light,

00:10:41.514 --> 00:10:42.715
but now the human can't see it.

00:10:43.475 --> 00:10:45.236
But now you move forward and you say, well,

00:10:45.256 --> 00:10:46.197
there's this off the shelf

00:10:46.236 --> 00:10:47.697
technology we can we can

00:10:47.778 --> 00:10:48.739
use infrared to actually

00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:49.558
see in the dark so we can

00:10:49.619 --> 00:10:50.259
remove the light,

00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:51.840
but still be able to see

00:10:52.379 --> 00:10:53.821
and make it easier,

00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.022
comfortable to actually don

00:10:56.042 --> 00:10:56.962
and off with a patient.

00:10:57.523 --> 00:10:59.504
Now you're starting to get to, well,

00:10:59.543 --> 00:11:01.825
a little bit closer to a final product.

00:11:01.985 --> 00:11:02.985
So, Patrick, we'll come back to you.

00:11:03.846 --> 00:11:05.466
What's the process now of

00:11:05.527 --> 00:11:08.749
taking this idea to sewing?

00:11:08.769 --> 00:11:09.649
You probably got at least a

00:11:09.690 --> 00:11:11.230
dozen donuts sewed at that point.

00:11:11.711 --> 00:11:14.332
The concept to actual tangible product.

00:11:14.352 --> 00:11:16.894
Because right now, not a lot of people,

00:11:16.914 --> 00:11:17.956
but some have probably

00:11:17.975 --> 00:11:20.177
gotten to this point in the process.

00:11:20.256 --> 00:11:22.139
And now things get really hard.

00:11:22.538 --> 00:11:24.799
So what's the process of going next?

00:11:24.860 --> 00:11:26.922
How do you approach things like design,

00:11:27.182 --> 00:11:28.702
prototyping, and manufacturing,

00:11:29.023 --> 00:11:29.964
which are words that not a

00:11:30.004 --> 00:11:31.684
lot of clinicians ever

00:11:31.725 --> 00:11:32.905
really use in a sentence?

00:11:32.926 --> 00:11:33.046
Yeah.

00:11:34.010 --> 00:11:34.291
Yeah,

00:11:34.410 --> 00:11:37.874
and I had no prior manufacturing

00:11:38.313 --> 00:11:39.274
experience either.

00:11:40.196 --> 00:11:43.217
Certainly had built one-off things.

00:11:43.278 --> 00:11:46.120
I had done little fixes here and there,

00:11:46.160 --> 00:11:47.642
but nothing at the scale of

00:11:48.142 --> 00:11:49.644
injection molding and stuff.

00:11:50.083 --> 00:11:52.765
So our first goal was to

00:11:52.826 --> 00:11:55.347
just gain a lot of data.

00:11:55.628 --> 00:11:57.129
Like, what do people want?

00:11:58.157 --> 00:11:59.138
We have never started a

00:11:59.177 --> 00:12:00.440
goggle company before.

00:12:01.942 --> 00:12:04.424
Helena had only tried one set of goggles.

00:12:04.804 --> 00:12:06.706
That's the only one brand

00:12:06.787 --> 00:12:08.408
that she had ever tried.

00:12:08.489 --> 00:12:10.711
So we really were starting

00:12:10.772 --> 00:12:14.076
from a green slate or an empty slate.

00:12:15.197 --> 00:12:15.277
Uh,

00:12:15.297 --> 00:12:17.418
the first was to make some research

00:12:17.518 --> 00:12:17.857
units.

00:12:18.278 --> 00:12:20.840
So we actually made some production, uh,

00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:22.620
style or production quality

00:12:22.721 --> 00:12:24.981
research units still homemade.

00:12:25.741 --> 00:12:27.523
Um, but with the, you know,

00:12:27.562 --> 00:12:29.563
for research only we used

00:12:29.923 --> 00:12:32.645
survey data and basically said, Hey, what,

00:12:33.225 --> 00:12:34.485
what works, what doesn't work,

00:12:34.505 --> 00:12:35.767
what features do you want?

00:12:36.466 --> 00:12:36.908
Um,

00:12:37.008 --> 00:12:39.668
and from there we went through a more

00:12:39.708 --> 00:12:41.269
traditional manufacturing path.

00:12:41.330 --> 00:12:43.571
So we actually found a manufacturer.

00:12:44.855 --> 00:12:46.596
We are going to a conference.

00:12:46.736 --> 00:12:48.278
We should mention that we

00:12:48.317 --> 00:12:49.498
went to a conference and

00:12:49.538 --> 00:12:51.198
someone else had a physical product,

00:12:51.259 --> 00:12:52.139
which was a shoulder

00:12:52.198 --> 00:12:53.320
strengthening device.

00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.721
And we said, Hey, who makes yours do that?

00:12:58.741 --> 00:12:58.881
Yeah.

00:12:58.922 --> 00:13:01.082
So referral to a manufacturer, um,

00:13:01.669 --> 00:13:05.073
We hired an engineer, like a real engineer,

00:13:05.094 --> 00:13:06.174
a mechanical engineer.

00:13:06.836 --> 00:13:09.217
And we then said, OK,

00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:10.980
we know that we can't use

00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:12.260
this off-the-shelf goggle

00:13:12.301 --> 00:13:14.423
forever because then you

00:13:14.764 --> 00:13:16.125
become dependent on that

00:13:16.164 --> 00:13:18.227
manufacturer still making

00:13:18.307 --> 00:13:20.769
it or making changes or upping the price.

00:13:22.412 --> 00:13:25.234
So we basically started from

00:13:25.354 --> 00:13:27.815
scratch with our own design,

00:13:28.056 --> 00:13:29.056
even getting to the point

00:13:29.076 --> 00:13:31.298
where we had a test single

00:13:31.418 --> 00:13:33.678
profile of what we wanted to cover,

00:13:33.739 --> 00:13:35.460
like a single line of print.

00:13:35.860 --> 00:13:37.520
And we went around everyone's face.

00:13:37.640 --> 00:13:39.162
It was like, okay, you know,

00:13:39.322 --> 00:13:40.643
here's all the different face shapes,

00:13:40.984 --> 00:13:43.845
you know, here's our, our core profile.

00:13:44.505 --> 00:13:45.686
Is this going to get, you know,

00:13:45.745 --> 00:13:47.748
everything we need because we were like,

00:13:47.768 --> 00:13:48.107
we didn't,

00:13:48.587 --> 00:13:50.328
We know we couldn't use the VR goggle,

00:13:50.349 --> 00:13:51.769
but we also didn't have any

00:13:52.549 --> 00:13:53.971
reference point to start from.

00:13:54.591 --> 00:13:56.993
So that basically started that journey.

00:13:58.373 --> 00:13:59.433
Once we started building up,

00:13:59.453 --> 00:14:00.614
we had three printers.

00:14:01.154 --> 00:14:02.315
We make prototypes.

00:14:02.355 --> 00:14:03.775
We revise prototypes.

00:14:04.655 --> 00:14:05.076
We had...

00:14:06.333 --> 00:14:11.018
A lot of twists and turns along the way.

00:14:11.097 --> 00:14:12.899
The one that sticks out in

00:14:12.940 --> 00:14:16.101
my mind was focus.

00:14:16.783 --> 00:14:21.726
So the VR goggle had a knob

00:14:21.787 --> 00:14:23.467
on the side that would move

00:14:23.488 --> 00:14:24.789
the camera back and forth.

00:14:25.546 --> 00:14:27.567
and that would help focus on the eye.

00:14:28.408 --> 00:14:29.668
And when we went through the

00:14:29.708 --> 00:14:30.870
manufacturing steps,

00:14:30.909 --> 00:14:32.850
we realized that adding in

00:14:32.870 --> 00:14:35.312
a focusing mechanism adds

00:14:35.352 --> 00:14:37.394
to the mechanical complexity,

00:14:37.434 --> 00:14:39.456
it adds parts, it adds things to break.

00:14:40.836 --> 00:14:43.759
So we got to the point where

00:14:43.778 --> 00:14:45.059
we actually were trying

00:14:45.100 --> 00:14:46.500
different lenses in

00:14:46.541 --> 00:14:48.202
different distances from the eye

00:14:48.842 --> 00:14:50.203
to see if we could actually

00:14:50.264 --> 00:14:51.985
get the depth of field,

00:14:52.085 --> 00:14:53.625
which is the area in focus,

00:14:54.706 --> 00:14:56.006
wide enough to where we

00:14:56.047 --> 00:14:57.086
wouldn't need a focusing

00:14:57.147 --> 00:14:57.868
mechanism at all.

00:14:59.192 --> 00:15:00.173
And that's actually where my

00:15:00.254 --> 00:15:01.833
photography background comes in.

00:15:02.495 --> 00:15:03.754
So understanding the

00:15:03.815 --> 00:15:06.616
aperture and the different

00:15:06.657 --> 00:15:07.856
kinds of lens types and the

00:15:07.996 --> 00:15:09.298
effects of depth of field,

00:15:09.798 --> 00:15:13.059
it actually allowed us to quantify.

00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:14.019
And I did it with,

00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:15.541
I actually took all these

00:15:15.581 --> 00:15:17.261
lenses and I measured all

00:15:17.302 --> 00:15:18.221
the depths of field.

00:15:18.782 --> 00:15:19.982
And just with math,

00:15:20.023 --> 00:15:21.183
we were able to prove it

00:15:21.224 --> 00:15:23.085
really saved the focusing

00:15:23.125 --> 00:15:24.264
mechanism only would have

00:15:24.284 --> 00:15:25.405
saved two millimeters.

00:15:27.081 --> 00:15:28.384
But then if we got rid of it,

00:15:29.886 --> 00:15:31.049
all those extra parts we

00:15:31.070 --> 00:15:33.355
could basically eliminate.

00:15:33.924 --> 00:15:34.725
So those are the kinds of

00:15:34.765 --> 00:15:36.506
things that you do along the way.

00:15:36.606 --> 00:15:37.567
And we're like,

00:15:37.849 --> 00:15:39.370
we don't know if we want to focus or not.

00:15:39.490 --> 00:15:41.751
So we test, we build one as a focusing rig,

00:15:42.292 --> 00:15:43.153
we build one without,

00:15:43.352 --> 00:15:43.953
we take a lot of

00:15:43.994 --> 00:15:47.917
measurements and as long as

00:15:47.937 --> 00:15:49.438
you're writing it down, it's science.

00:15:49.839 --> 00:15:52.321
So we wrote it all down and

00:15:52.881 --> 00:15:54.923
then those are some of the

00:15:54.964 --> 00:15:56.184
decisions we made along the way.

00:16:03.609 --> 00:16:04.149
All right, Helena,

00:16:04.168 --> 00:16:04.789
we've got to come back to

00:16:04.809 --> 00:16:05.711
you at this point because

00:16:05.750 --> 00:16:06.711
right now we're using words

00:16:06.751 --> 00:16:08.653
like injection molds and

00:16:08.673 --> 00:16:10.674
mechanical engineers and

00:16:10.835 --> 00:16:13.216
aperture and all these different words,

00:16:13.256 --> 00:16:13.477
right?

00:16:13.557 --> 00:16:14.138
So it looks like you're

00:16:14.158 --> 00:16:15.178
doing a lot of research on

00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:16.900
the problem still.

00:16:17.441 --> 00:16:18.761
But right now, at this point,

00:16:18.782 --> 00:16:20.984
it feels like you're the market.

00:16:21.424 --> 00:16:22.505
You're sort of still solving

00:16:22.525 --> 00:16:23.986
this problem for yourself, right?

00:16:24.294 --> 00:16:25.134
but you're hoping that

00:16:25.154 --> 00:16:26.556
there's enough people like

00:16:26.615 --> 00:16:28.937
you who are frustrated with the situation,

00:16:29.216 --> 00:16:30.197
you're hoping for that,

00:16:30.697 --> 00:16:31.998
but you're a clinician, you're a PT,

00:16:32.158 --> 00:16:32.977
you wanna make sure.

00:16:33.398 --> 00:16:35.139
So how'd you validate the

00:16:35.198 --> 00:16:36.359
market for this product

00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:37.740
outside of just Helena?

00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:39.721
What steps did you take that

00:16:39.780 --> 00:16:40.941
when you were done with this,

00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:42.461
when you got a really great product,

00:16:42.481 --> 00:16:44.481
that there was gonna be a demand for it?

00:16:44.643 --> 00:16:45.482
And then how did you,

00:16:45.883 --> 00:16:46.842
if you found out there was,

00:16:47.062 --> 00:16:47.844
how'd you get it to them in

00:16:47.864 --> 00:16:49.744
the beginning?

00:16:49.943 --> 00:16:50.965
Yes, so,

00:16:52.043 --> 00:16:52.624
Luckily,

00:16:53.725 --> 00:16:55.447
there's lots of good data from the

00:16:55.466 --> 00:16:56.388
American Physical Therapy

00:16:56.408 --> 00:16:58.730
Association on number of

00:16:58.769 --> 00:16:59.870
physical therapists.

00:17:00.731 --> 00:17:02.354
And we were able to gather

00:17:02.433 --> 00:17:04.415
some ancillary data that

00:17:04.536 --> 00:17:05.537
showed that about ten

00:17:05.576 --> 00:17:07.459
percent of those physical

00:17:07.499 --> 00:17:10.182
therapists were doing vestibular care.

00:17:10.560 --> 00:17:12.082
So that gave us a good solid

00:17:12.142 --> 00:17:13.481
number to start from that

00:17:13.501 --> 00:17:14.702
was in the several thousands.

00:17:15.262 --> 00:17:16.884
So that's a pretty good start.

00:17:17.183 --> 00:17:19.305
And anecdotally,

00:17:19.345 --> 00:17:21.204
I guess you could say I had

00:17:21.224 --> 00:17:22.266
a pretty good connection

00:17:22.306 --> 00:17:23.286
with the Vestibular Special

00:17:23.326 --> 00:17:24.186
Interest Group and quite a

00:17:24.207 --> 00:17:25.186
few Vestibular Therapists.

00:17:25.207 --> 00:17:26.528
So I kind of had my own

00:17:26.627 --> 00:17:29.048
sense of like who has goggles,

00:17:29.088 --> 00:17:30.288
who wishes they had goggles

00:17:30.328 --> 00:17:31.470
but couldn't afford any,

00:17:32.369 --> 00:17:34.050
who would want more goggles

00:17:34.090 --> 00:17:35.411
if they could afford more

00:17:36.352 --> 00:17:37.251
and that sort of thing.

00:17:37.551 --> 00:17:39.393
And so we started with that number.

00:17:40.463 --> 00:17:43.105
And then as we went along,

00:17:43.165 --> 00:17:45.228
we were able to again use

00:17:45.248 --> 00:17:46.929
some of those connections to say, hey,

00:17:47.369 --> 00:17:48.451
will you try this?

00:17:48.711 --> 00:17:50.731
Or we had one.

00:17:52.335 --> 00:17:55.076
very super fan, Margaret Fitzpatrick,

00:17:55.115 --> 00:17:58.057
who one of her employees

00:17:58.557 --> 00:18:00.699
was a student of mine, actually.

00:18:01.278 --> 00:18:04.280
And she had been using goggles for years.

00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:05.861
And when she found out what

00:18:05.901 --> 00:18:07.041
we were doing or kind of

00:18:07.082 --> 00:18:08.542
starting to try to do, she's like,

00:18:08.623 --> 00:18:09.502
I have a check for you.

00:18:09.563 --> 00:18:10.623
Like, send me a pair.

00:18:11.003 --> 00:18:12.124
Like, I will pay.

00:18:12.183 --> 00:18:13.404
And the FDA allows

00:18:14.345 --> 00:18:15.924
research products,

00:18:17.365 --> 00:18:17.945
I guess you could say for

00:18:17.965 --> 00:18:18.945
lack of a better, easier,

00:18:19.046 --> 00:18:19.986
easiest term is sold,

00:18:20.006 --> 00:18:21.886
to be sold with the intent

00:18:22.326 --> 00:18:23.626
that you would not keep

00:18:23.666 --> 00:18:24.646
that in the market if it's

00:18:24.686 --> 00:18:27.087
not your final version and

00:18:27.127 --> 00:18:28.607
that you will figure out some sort of,

00:18:28.988 --> 00:18:29.708
they don't manage,

00:18:29.867 --> 00:18:30.608
FDA doesn't care about the

00:18:30.648 --> 00:18:31.828
business side very much,

00:18:32.308 --> 00:18:33.568
except that you can't be

00:18:33.628 --> 00:18:34.489
marketing and saying, oh,

00:18:34.528 --> 00:18:35.769
this is cleared when it isn't.

00:18:35.829 --> 00:18:36.769
They definitely don't want that.

00:18:37.289 --> 00:18:38.270
But if you're saying, hey,

00:18:38.330 --> 00:18:39.191
we are labeling these

00:18:39.230 --> 00:18:40.771
clearly and this is the

00:18:40.791 --> 00:18:41.612
process that we're going

00:18:41.652 --> 00:18:42.271
through and this is how

00:18:42.291 --> 00:18:43.553
we're going to gather this feedback,

00:18:43.573 --> 00:18:44.653
which they actually want to

00:18:44.712 --> 00:18:46.794
see that you've done some

00:18:46.814 --> 00:18:48.555
kind of process.

00:18:48.575 --> 00:18:48.694
Now,

00:18:48.714 --> 00:18:50.655
it could be like especially de novo

00:18:50.675 --> 00:18:51.016
products.

00:18:51.036 --> 00:18:51.836
You're going to be doing, of course,

00:18:52.155 --> 00:18:53.356
research studies and things

00:18:53.376 --> 00:18:54.917
like that because this

00:18:54.958 --> 00:18:56.238
technology is known and

00:18:56.278 --> 00:18:57.278
there are other products

00:18:57.298 --> 00:18:58.858
that are considered to be equivalent,

00:18:58.999 --> 00:19:00.599
substantially equivalent products.

00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:02.441
and have already been known

00:19:03.101 --> 00:19:05.301
as safe that allowed us to

00:19:05.461 --> 00:19:06.643
go through this process of

00:19:07.063 --> 00:19:08.083
you know putting these out

00:19:08.423 --> 00:19:09.923
you kind of as they were

00:19:10.104 --> 00:19:11.124
using you know the specs

00:19:11.144 --> 00:19:12.204
that we knew were kind of

00:19:12.224 --> 00:19:13.464
within line of the others

00:19:14.026 --> 00:19:15.145
as far as like what's the

00:19:15.185 --> 00:19:16.067
strength of the infrared

00:19:16.086 --> 00:19:16.846
light the wavelength that

00:19:16.886 --> 00:19:19.728
kind of thing and um and

00:19:19.748 --> 00:19:21.209
then we had ready customers

00:19:21.288 --> 00:19:22.528
and what we decided to do

00:19:22.568 --> 00:19:23.809
as a business was say okay

00:19:24.647 --> 00:19:26.429
You get this product very affordably.

00:19:26.788 --> 00:19:27.808
It does the job.

00:19:28.288 --> 00:19:29.449
You give us feedback.

00:19:29.930 --> 00:19:31.890
When we have our actual kind

00:19:31.910 --> 00:19:33.510
of official manufactured version,

00:19:33.570 --> 00:19:34.730
not the prototype version,

00:19:35.211 --> 00:19:36.971
we will swap that out for you.

00:19:37.571 --> 00:19:39.051
So from a financial perspective,

00:19:39.132 --> 00:19:40.232
huge deal.

00:19:40.673 --> 00:19:43.413
But they are giving, I guess I would say,

00:19:43.574 --> 00:19:44.773
their time to give us the

00:19:44.814 --> 00:19:46.775
feedback and understanding

00:19:46.795 --> 00:19:48.015
that that first version was

00:19:48.035 --> 00:19:50.435
going to be not ideal.

00:19:50.496 --> 00:19:51.256
It did the job.

00:19:51.736 --> 00:19:53.436
But, you know, it could be improved.

00:19:53.477 --> 00:19:56.156
And so they were kind of agreeing to that.

00:19:56.277 --> 00:19:58.097
And so, you know, Margaret started that.

00:19:58.137 --> 00:19:59.617
And then we had, you know,

00:19:59.637 --> 00:20:00.538
a network of the similar

00:20:00.558 --> 00:20:02.739
clinicians that was able to

00:20:02.798 --> 00:20:04.400
reach out to to say, you know,

00:20:04.420 --> 00:20:05.039
do you need this?

00:20:05.099 --> 00:20:06.400
Who do you know needs this?

00:20:06.921 --> 00:20:08.280
And just kind of informal

00:20:08.320 --> 00:20:11.301
marketing to start until we

00:20:11.342 --> 00:20:12.521
were able to officially

00:20:13.323 --> 00:20:14.843
market more formally, you know,

00:20:14.863 --> 00:20:16.163
when we had FDA clearance.

00:20:16.182 --> 00:20:18.943
Is that you want to add to that, Patrick?

00:20:18.983 --> 00:20:19.865
No, that's right.

00:20:21.025 --> 00:20:21.204
Yeah.

00:20:21.641 --> 00:20:21.840
I mean,

00:20:21.881 --> 00:20:23.363
from what I'm hearing is on one end,

00:20:23.383 --> 00:20:24.644
we've got Patrick gaining

00:20:24.683 --> 00:20:25.424
new life skills from

00:20:25.444 --> 00:20:26.787
YouTube on sewing donuts.

00:20:27.406 --> 00:20:28.828
And on the other end of the spectrum,

00:20:28.909 --> 00:20:29.990
we've got Helena now

00:20:30.049 --> 00:20:31.371
becoming or needing to

00:20:31.412 --> 00:20:34.295
become sort of an FDA regulations expert.

00:20:34.355 --> 00:20:35.996
So along this way,

00:20:36.016 --> 00:20:36.797
there's probably some

00:20:36.817 --> 00:20:37.798
things it sounds like that

00:20:37.857 --> 00:20:39.160
popped up that in the

00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:41.082
beginning you didn't understand that, hey,

00:20:41.122 --> 00:20:41.982
we've gotten this far.

00:20:42.022 --> 00:20:43.344
We now need to solve these problems.

00:20:44.404 --> 00:20:45.406
but you were able to reach

00:20:45.487 --> 00:20:46.807
out to people and learn how

00:20:46.827 --> 00:20:47.910
to solve those problems.

00:20:47.970 --> 00:20:49.171
And if you ever watched the

00:20:49.191 --> 00:20:50.392
movie with Matt Damon, the Martian,

00:20:50.412 --> 00:20:51.453
you solve one problem,

00:20:51.534 --> 00:20:52.555
then you solve the next one.

00:20:52.575 --> 00:20:54.176
And then hopefully if you solve enough,

00:20:54.297 --> 00:20:54.998
you get to go home.

00:20:56.538 --> 00:20:58.181
So now we're starting to move along,

00:20:58.541 --> 00:20:58.801
right?

00:20:58.922 --> 00:21:00.324
You're using words like FDA.

00:21:00.463 --> 00:21:03.067
You're using words like research goggles.

00:21:03.207 --> 00:21:04.208
Like this is becoming...

00:21:05.009 --> 00:21:05.670
a thing.

00:21:06.289 --> 00:21:07.790
So as this thing,

00:21:07.951 --> 00:21:09.472
Patrick becomes a thing and

00:21:09.512 --> 00:21:11.913
gain tractions, uh, gain traction.

00:21:12.055 --> 00:21:12.934
What were some of the key

00:21:12.954 --> 00:21:14.497
strategies you guys use to

00:21:14.596 --> 00:21:16.778
actually go from this thing

00:21:17.358 --> 00:21:19.019
to many things and to scale

00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:20.740
it into a business?

00:21:20.861 --> 00:21:21.642
This wasn't just one

00:21:21.662 --> 00:21:23.503
solution for Helena or

00:21:23.584 --> 00:21:24.364
clinicians like her.

00:21:24.403 --> 00:21:25.744
This is now a business.

00:21:25.944 --> 00:21:27.287
So what did you have to

00:21:27.326 --> 00:21:29.528
employ here and what growing pains?

00:21:29.548 --> 00:21:30.749
Cause there are going to be some,

00:21:30.848 --> 00:21:32.130
did you experience and

00:21:32.150 --> 00:21:33.391
how'd you get over those?

00:21:33.431 --> 00:21:33.791
Yeah.

00:21:33.832 --> 00:21:34.192
Yeah.

00:21:35.105 --> 00:21:37.185
So the, when we first,

00:21:37.746 --> 00:21:39.227
the first prototype that I built,

00:21:40.027 --> 00:21:41.507
I was still working as a

00:21:41.547 --> 00:21:42.866
consultant and working full

00:21:42.906 --> 00:21:46.367
time in industry, in IT.

00:21:46.907 --> 00:21:49.209
So this is definitely something that,

00:21:49.328 --> 00:21:50.788
you know, we start,

00:21:50.808 --> 00:21:51.709
the sewing machine was on

00:21:51.729 --> 00:21:54.588
the dining room table, you know,

00:21:54.648 --> 00:21:57.849
it was just us, you know, very homegrown.

00:21:58.450 --> 00:21:59.809
As we started to get traction,

00:21:59.849 --> 00:22:02.611
we started to see the kind of the,

00:22:03.521 --> 00:22:05.144
people really engage with it.

00:22:05.265 --> 00:22:06.145
And then, you know,

00:22:06.446 --> 00:22:08.128
the referral rate and people saying, Oh,

00:22:08.148 --> 00:22:09.711
my gosh, you got to check this out.

00:22:10.112 --> 00:22:11.575
They've got this, you know, this great

00:22:11.990 --> 00:22:13.211
product, even though it was rough,

00:22:13.692 --> 00:22:15.173
it was still better than nothing.

00:22:16.555 --> 00:22:18.497
And there was the potential there for,

00:22:18.517 --> 00:22:18.916
you know,

00:22:18.957 --> 00:22:20.178
they saw the potential where we

00:22:20.198 --> 00:22:21.078
were going with that.

00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:24.962
So, um, I started full time, um,

00:22:25.042 --> 00:22:27.625
about a year and a half after that point.

00:22:27.944 --> 00:22:31.327
Um, and that was, it was relatively fast.

00:22:31.669 --> 00:22:32.670
Um, but you know,

00:22:32.710 --> 00:22:35.112
basically once there was a, there was a,

00:22:35.211 --> 00:22:37.153
once, once we had a threshold in the bank,

00:22:37.253 --> 00:22:38.214
I was like, okay, like,

00:22:38.755 --> 00:22:39.957
that's enough of a cushion

00:22:40.557 --> 00:22:42.843
for me to kind of safely

00:22:42.923 --> 00:22:45.386
leave what I was doing full

00:22:45.446 --> 00:22:47.151
time with all the benefits

00:22:47.191 --> 00:22:48.874
and stuff to go, you know,

00:22:48.913 --> 00:22:50.316
basically do this full time.

00:22:51.895 --> 00:22:53.237
And shortly after that,

00:22:53.277 --> 00:22:54.237
we hired our first

00:22:54.297 --> 00:22:55.797
full-time employee as well

00:22:56.237 --> 00:22:59.238
to keep up with the production demand,

00:22:59.258 --> 00:23:01.699
but also the other products

00:23:02.239 --> 00:23:03.118
that we had done.

00:23:03.479 --> 00:23:05.059
So it was around that time

00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:07.079
we started looking at the

00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:08.881
anatomical models as well.

00:23:10.083 --> 00:23:11.763
which kind of happened a

00:23:11.804 --> 00:23:13.184
little bit after the goggle.

00:23:13.224 --> 00:23:15.747
But as we were starting to

00:23:15.867 --> 00:23:16.928
explore the space,

00:23:17.388 --> 00:23:20.750
we noticed that at least I

00:23:20.770 --> 00:23:21.372
had noticed from the

00:23:21.432 --> 00:23:22.853
outside that the vestibular

00:23:22.893 --> 00:23:25.474
world was pretty anemic

00:23:25.535 --> 00:23:27.336
with like quality

00:23:27.596 --> 00:23:28.958
vestibular models that were

00:23:28.998 --> 00:23:30.179
good for teaching and good

00:23:30.199 --> 00:23:31.240
for patient facing.

00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:34.142
So that's another area where

00:23:34.261 --> 00:23:36.864
I was waiting for paperwork

00:23:36.884 --> 00:23:38.644
to get done or waiting for

00:23:38.806 --> 00:23:40.326
feedback to come in.

00:23:40.467 --> 00:23:41.807
I spent some time working on

00:23:41.887 --> 00:23:44.410
models as well and developing those.

00:23:44.430 --> 00:23:45.030
All right.

00:23:45.050 --> 00:23:46.010
I'm going to ask you both

00:23:46.332 --> 00:23:47.192
the same question.

00:23:47.231 --> 00:23:49.134
We'll go Helena and then Patrick.

00:23:49.433 --> 00:23:50.474
And I didn't prepare you for this one.

00:23:50.494 --> 00:23:52.436
That's why I like this question.

00:23:52.497 --> 00:23:53.477
Was there a moment...

00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:55.740
along the way there had to

00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:56.519
be and I want to know what

00:23:56.559 --> 00:23:57.280
it is for each of you

00:23:57.300 --> 00:23:57.820
because it might have been

00:23:57.840 --> 00:23:59.681
different that you realized

00:23:59.701 --> 00:24:00.921
that this was a thing this

00:24:00.961 --> 00:24:02.442
wasn't just kind of

00:24:02.461 --> 00:24:03.862
something fun or a pain

00:24:03.902 --> 00:24:05.863
point or isn't this cute

00:24:06.403 --> 00:24:07.923
when did it for you helena

00:24:08.063 --> 00:24:10.304
like oh man this is a thing

00:24:10.364 --> 00:24:13.624
this has gravity yeah so

00:24:14.284 --> 00:24:15.365
some of this process

00:24:15.384 --> 00:24:16.704
happened during covid

00:24:17.634 --> 00:24:20.277
And so we, you know,

00:24:20.457 --> 00:24:21.337
we're definitely had some

00:24:21.357 --> 00:24:23.519
additional challenges in various aspects,

00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:24.780
as you can imagine with that,

00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:26.662
like lack of in-person

00:24:26.701 --> 00:24:28.804
contact with folks to kind

00:24:28.824 --> 00:24:30.644
of let them know about, you know,

00:24:30.744 --> 00:24:32.266
our product and things like that.

00:24:32.326 --> 00:24:34.907
But what I'll say is we had

00:24:34.948 --> 00:24:36.809
pretty consistent response.

00:24:36.869 --> 00:24:38.290
And so when we were edging

00:24:38.330 --> 00:24:39.491
towards FDA clearance,

00:24:39.511 --> 00:24:40.592
which we got in November,

00:24:40.612 --> 00:24:42.913
and we had a bunch of

00:24:42.953 --> 00:24:44.434
people pre-ordering saying,

00:24:44.816 --> 00:24:46.616
I want this as soon as it comes out,

00:24:47.390 --> 00:24:48.711
I want one and I'm like

00:24:48.931 --> 00:24:50.230
that's a good sign like

00:24:50.310 --> 00:24:52.251
that to me was like okay

00:24:52.412 --> 00:24:54.392
like I think this is gonna

00:24:54.511 --> 00:24:57.553
float um as a business and

00:24:58.074 --> 00:24:59.614
and for me you know as much

00:24:59.653 --> 00:25:01.474
as my one sister teases me

00:25:01.515 --> 00:25:02.535
that I'm going to buy an

00:25:02.595 --> 00:25:03.736
island someday or something

00:25:04.215 --> 00:25:05.355
you know to me when I get

00:25:05.395 --> 00:25:06.696
excited about the financial

00:25:06.777 --> 00:25:07.616
aspect it's about

00:25:08.737 --> 00:25:10.239
um being solvent so that we

00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:11.398
can continue to solve

00:25:11.439 --> 00:25:13.260
problems you know we have

00:25:13.320 --> 00:25:14.402
enough income from the

00:25:14.442 --> 00:25:15.563
goggles okay we're going to

00:25:15.583 --> 00:25:16.682
work on this next product

00:25:16.782 --> 00:25:17.544
okay we're going to do this

00:25:17.584 --> 00:25:18.984
next vestibular model okay

00:25:19.025 --> 00:25:20.826
like someday I might even

00:25:20.865 --> 00:25:22.106
get my own not-for-profit

00:25:22.166 --> 00:25:23.929
I've been promised uh so

00:25:23.969 --> 00:25:25.390
that we can you know find

00:25:25.509 --> 00:25:26.951
other ways to help support

00:25:26.990 --> 00:25:28.652
vestibular technology and

00:25:28.731 --> 00:25:30.854
education in you know

00:25:30.894 --> 00:25:32.394
situations or areas where

00:25:32.454 --> 00:25:34.797
people don't have as many resources so

00:25:35.676 --> 00:25:37.157
This is really what drives me.

00:25:37.198 --> 00:25:38.219
And I think that that kind

00:25:38.239 --> 00:25:39.180
of turning point of getting

00:25:39.220 --> 00:25:41.721
a bunch of pre-orders around that time,

00:25:41.881 --> 00:25:42.622
kind of right before we

00:25:42.662 --> 00:25:46.443
launched the formal manufactured goggles,

00:25:46.523 --> 00:25:47.684
inside goggles,

00:25:47.704 --> 00:25:49.205
that was a big thing for me.

00:25:49.266 --> 00:25:53.868
How about you, Patrick?

00:25:53.909 --> 00:25:54.308
Yeah.

00:25:55.882 --> 00:25:56.942
It's a good question.

00:25:58.261 --> 00:25:58.903
I love the fact that you

00:25:58.942 --> 00:25:59.643
have to have different

00:25:59.702 --> 00:26:01.323
answers here because you

00:26:01.363 --> 00:26:02.702
came from different directions.

00:26:02.742 --> 00:26:03.442
So likely,

00:26:03.563 --> 00:26:04.763
my guess was these were going to

00:26:04.784 --> 00:26:05.644
be different points.

00:26:05.864 --> 00:26:06.604
So when was it for you?

00:26:06.624 --> 00:26:10.065
Or maybe you've never thought about this.

00:26:10.085 --> 00:26:15.665
I think that once we got FDA to me was,

00:26:15.685 --> 00:26:16.865
you know,

00:26:16.885 --> 00:26:19.205
like I like to say we have two birthdays.

00:26:19.286 --> 00:26:19.605
You know,

00:26:19.885 --> 00:26:21.547
the first birthday is when I made

00:26:21.606 --> 00:26:22.727
the prototype for Helena.

00:26:23.544 --> 00:26:24.565
but kind of our real

00:26:24.605 --> 00:26:25.964
birthday was when we got

00:26:26.065 --> 00:26:28.626
FDA because you can't

00:26:28.727 --> 00:26:29.887
really be a medical device

00:26:29.948 --> 00:26:32.189
company without FDA.

00:26:32.990 --> 00:26:36.432
And so to me, that was the like, okay,

00:26:36.892 --> 00:26:37.892
this is really real.

00:26:37.991 --> 00:26:41.473
Like we can actually go out and sell this

00:26:42.595 --> 00:26:44.997
We had a lot of hospitals

00:26:45.457 --> 00:26:46.178
that weren't able to

00:26:46.218 --> 00:26:48.239
participate in the research program.

00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:51.102
So we had a backlog of people saying like,

00:26:51.221 --> 00:26:52.823
hey, when you get FDA,

00:26:53.743 --> 00:26:55.644
I want our whole network to have these.

00:26:56.925 --> 00:26:59.827
So we certainly had promises,

00:27:00.248 --> 00:27:01.809
but then kind of tying in a

00:27:01.829 --> 00:27:03.290
little bit to what Helena said,

00:27:03.351 --> 00:27:04.211
the pre-orders,

00:27:04.652 --> 00:27:06.532
but the pre-orders came after FDA.

00:27:07.753 --> 00:27:08.515
So to me,

00:27:08.595 --> 00:27:11.636
that is when all the pieces came together,

00:27:11.696 --> 00:27:15.078
the business, the regulatory,

00:27:15.159 --> 00:27:16.259
the engineering,

00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:18.240
because at that point for

00:27:18.340 --> 00:27:19.402
FDA to clear something,

00:27:19.481 --> 00:27:20.721
they actually have to clear

00:27:21.282 --> 00:27:22.483
the final version.

00:27:22.844 --> 00:27:24.505
They can't clear a prototype.

00:27:24.704 --> 00:27:27.366
So we were already out.

00:27:28.547 --> 00:27:30.768
all the money for the molds and the,

00:27:31.128 --> 00:27:32.549
you know, all the different pieces.

00:27:32.569 --> 00:27:33.309
Like we had to, you know,

00:27:33.329 --> 00:27:35.691
you front load a lot of these expenses.

00:27:37.692 --> 00:27:39.534
And, but once we get FDA,

00:27:39.594 --> 00:27:40.914
that was like huge.

00:27:41.194 --> 00:27:42.556
Cause then it was like a

00:27:42.615 --> 00:27:44.237
little bit of an external validation,

00:27:44.257 --> 00:27:46.317
like, okay, like, you know,

00:27:46.337 --> 00:27:47.098
it was a lot of work.

00:27:47.138 --> 00:27:48.459
It was a hundred page

00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:50.840
document to submit and, you know,

00:27:50.921 --> 00:27:52.561
countless hours to get it done,

00:27:52.622 --> 00:27:54.022
but we could do it.

00:27:54.103 --> 00:27:54.282
Like,

00:27:54.809 --> 00:27:56.590
We were able to do it even

00:27:56.631 --> 00:27:59.313
without having prior experience, you know,

00:27:59.353 --> 00:28:01.414
launching a medical device.

00:28:01.494 --> 00:28:01.674
Yeah.

00:28:01.815 --> 00:28:02.154
Yeah.

00:28:02.234 --> 00:28:03.375
I was going to use that phrase too there,

00:28:03.395 --> 00:28:04.936
which is external validation,

00:28:05.018 --> 00:28:06.679
which is this is also

00:28:06.739 --> 00:28:07.358
something a lot of

00:28:07.419 --> 00:28:08.880
organizations probably get to.

00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:10.240
And this is the final hurdle

00:28:10.761 --> 00:28:12.522
for someone else, right,

00:28:12.563 --> 00:28:13.864
who says to do this,

00:28:13.943 --> 00:28:15.345
you have to do these things.

00:28:15.404 --> 00:28:17.727
And this is simple, but not easy.

00:28:17.787 --> 00:28:17.906
Right.

00:28:18.186 --> 00:28:19.688
um yeah I mean I will say

00:28:19.728 --> 00:28:21.890
that like so if if the

00:28:21.930 --> 00:28:23.151
goggles were in the woods

00:28:23.191 --> 00:28:23.951
and there's no one else

00:28:23.990 --> 00:28:25.511
around I would still think

00:28:25.551 --> 00:28:27.513
they were cool I know

00:28:27.534 --> 00:28:29.654
they'd be useful but that

00:28:29.694 --> 00:28:30.655
doesn't mean you can make a

00:28:30.695 --> 00:28:32.096
business or a life you know

00:28:32.136 --> 00:28:33.557
like a livelihood out of it

00:28:33.617 --> 00:28:35.720
so I think the fda also

00:28:35.779 --> 00:28:38.442
validated that this was uh

00:28:38.461 --> 00:28:40.083
a career that I could like

00:28:40.163 --> 00:28:42.744
basically shift my i.t background

00:28:43.444 --> 00:28:46.267
into full-time and that had, you know,

00:28:46.288 --> 00:28:47.448
the external validation for

00:28:47.489 --> 00:28:49.289
me is just like, okay, yes, this is,

00:28:49.750 --> 00:28:51.051
it meets all the standards

00:28:51.092 --> 00:28:53.032
and criteria that makes us

00:28:53.133 --> 00:28:55.535
a safe and effective medical device,

00:28:56.036 --> 00:28:58.136
which you can build a company around and,

00:28:58.317 --> 00:28:59.618
you know, a long-term company.

00:29:00.219 --> 00:29:00.700
Love that.

00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:01.820
All right, Helena, we'll come back to you.

00:29:02.921 --> 00:29:04.884
Now we're a thing and you're doing this,

00:29:05.263 --> 00:29:05.924
even though you launched

00:29:05.964 --> 00:29:07.647
mostly during COVID, like still a thing.

00:29:07.887 --> 00:29:09.089
You had some hurdles to overcome,

00:29:09.170 --> 00:29:09.750
even though you had to put

00:29:09.770 --> 00:29:10.431
together a seven hundred

00:29:10.451 --> 00:29:11.712
page document and have

00:29:11.752 --> 00:29:12.714
someone sign off on that.

00:29:12.855 --> 00:29:14.436
And that's not easy.

00:29:14.457 --> 00:29:15.498
Now let's talk about impact.

00:29:16.367 --> 00:29:19.449
How, how is this, these goggles, right?

00:29:19.469 --> 00:29:20.209
Which sounds something that

00:29:20.229 --> 00:29:21.069
sounds so simple,

00:29:21.490 --> 00:29:23.750
but does something that without it,

00:29:23.770 --> 00:29:24.451
you can't do.

00:29:25.090 --> 00:29:27.571
How has it impacted the PT community?

00:29:27.592 --> 00:29:28.571
We'll start with clinicians,

00:29:28.612 --> 00:29:29.792
but they also touch patients.

00:29:30.333 --> 00:29:31.032
And then we'll get into what

00:29:31.133 --> 00:29:32.433
feedback you've gotten from

00:29:32.473 --> 00:29:34.173
other PTs because PTs love

00:29:34.193 --> 00:29:35.355
to talk and they'll give

00:29:35.375 --> 00:29:36.275
you their honest opinion.

00:29:36.634 --> 00:29:37.576
And how has it influenced

00:29:37.615 --> 00:29:39.276
the evolution of what

00:29:39.316 --> 00:29:41.116
you've been able to do with the product?

00:29:42.664 --> 00:29:44.865
Yeah, I think, to me,

00:29:44.925 --> 00:29:46.446
the feedback we've gotten

00:29:46.487 --> 00:29:47.727
and the impact we've had

00:29:48.507 --> 00:29:50.268
have been really positive overall,

00:29:50.347 --> 00:29:51.128
to summarize.

00:29:51.368 --> 00:29:54.670
And I think as far as the impact, for sure,

00:29:54.730 --> 00:29:55.871
folks who have been wanting

00:29:55.891 --> 00:29:57.631
this technology for such a long time

00:29:59.251 --> 00:30:01.114
they're just thrilled to be

00:30:01.153 --> 00:30:02.434
able to afford something

00:30:02.474 --> 00:30:04.236
that does the job.

00:30:04.375 --> 00:30:05.616
And we get that feedback

00:30:05.656 --> 00:30:06.938
time and again in our surveys.

00:30:06.958 --> 00:30:10.181
We do a lot of continued feedback,

00:30:10.280 --> 00:30:13.242
even not just past our prototype phase.

00:30:13.262 --> 00:30:15.223
We're still doing that always,

00:30:16.164 --> 00:30:17.846
not just because it's required by FDA,

00:30:17.866 --> 00:30:18.727
but because we really

00:30:18.767 --> 00:30:20.608
genuinely continually want to improve.

00:30:20.989 --> 00:30:22.529
And we have had several batches,

00:30:22.970 --> 00:30:24.191
essentially, of goggles.

00:30:24.332 --> 00:30:25.752
So we've been able to

00:30:28.273 --> 00:30:30.095
Really help those folks that

00:30:30.134 --> 00:30:31.375
needed that device and for

00:30:31.414 --> 00:30:32.714
people who didn't know how

00:30:32.755 --> 00:30:33.855
valuable it could be until

00:30:33.875 --> 00:30:35.375
they had it in their hands as a student.

00:30:36.155 --> 00:30:37.256
I didn't really realize what

00:30:37.296 --> 00:30:38.317
I was missing that kind of

00:30:38.336 --> 00:30:39.436
feedback so that's pretty

00:30:39.477 --> 00:30:40.576
exciting for folks to

00:30:40.596 --> 00:30:41.416
really feel like that they

00:30:41.436 --> 00:30:42.857
can then do their best job.

00:30:43.738 --> 00:30:44.897
Which is something I'm very

00:30:44.938 --> 00:30:45.719
committed to myself,

00:30:45.739 --> 00:30:46.419
but I know a lot of

00:30:46.439 --> 00:30:47.479
conditions feel the same,

00:30:47.499 --> 00:30:48.679
and I love supporting that

00:30:49.118 --> 00:30:50.920
and I think as far as.

00:30:52.266 --> 00:30:54.208
overall, like, again,

00:30:54.248 --> 00:30:55.108
wanting to always improve,

00:30:55.128 --> 00:30:56.431
there are folks who are like, gosh,

00:30:56.570 --> 00:30:57.951
I would like this, I would like that.

00:30:57.971 --> 00:30:58.712
And we're like, yes,

00:30:58.873 --> 00:30:59.753
we're going to work on that.

00:30:59.773 --> 00:31:00.894
So we're already working on

00:31:00.934 --> 00:31:03.356
our next device to do

00:31:03.436 --> 00:31:05.318
ocular motor testing, which, again,

00:31:05.338 --> 00:31:06.420
has been around for a long time,

00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:07.641
but we're trying to improve access.

00:31:07.681 --> 00:31:09.403
So, you know, continue our mission.

00:31:10.324 --> 00:31:11.085
To me, that's huge.

00:31:12.417 --> 00:31:13.179
That's great.

00:31:13.199 --> 00:31:13.398
All right,

00:31:13.499 --> 00:31:14.680
this next question is for both of you.

00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:15.700
We'll go Patrick first.

00:31:16.520 --> 00:31:18.583
What advice would you give to other,

00:31:18.803 --> 00:31:19.623
we'll stay within our

00:31:19.663 --> 00:31:21.005
profession of physical therapy,

00:31:21.045 --> 00:31:22.305
but really I'd like to

00:31:22.566 --> 00:31:23.546
start to open this up and

00:31:24.106 --> 00:31:26.288
it's always great when it's a real person,

00:31:26.328 --> 00:31:26.548
right?

00:31:26.568 --> 00:31:27.589
It's Helena solving a

00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:28.470
problem that she had.

00:31:28.490 --> 00:31:29.691
So we'll change the question.

00:31:29.931 --> 00:31:30.791
What advice would you give

00:31:30.811 --> 00:31:31.633
to other healthcare

00:31:31.653 --> 00:31:32.973
professionals who have an

00:31:33.054 --> 00:31:34.315
idea for a product

00:31:34.934 --> 00:31:36.037
but aren't sure where to start.

00:31:36.116 --> 00:31:37.118
Maybe they don't know how to

00:31:37.179 --> 00:31:37.740
sew donuts at all.

00:31:38.141 --> 00:31:39.262
What lessons have both of

00:31:39.282 --> 00:31:40.305
you learned that could help

00:31:40.325 --> 00:31:41.606
them on their journey?

00:31:41.626 --> 00:31:42.147
Essentially,

00:31:42.750 --> 00:31:44.271
what words of wisdom would you

00:31:44.332 --> 00:31:45.314
whisper as someone as you

00:31:45.334 --> 00:31:46.676
took them under your wing?

00:31:49.218 --> 00:31:50.877
yeah, the,

00:31:50.999 --> 00:31:52.818
I can definitely say now that I

00:31:52.858 --> 00:31:54.980
had kind of, I'm in the industry,

00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:56.539
even though I'm not a clinician, um,

00:31:57.960 --> 00:31:58.840
I can definitely say that

00:31:58.861 --> 00:32:02.040
the PTs in particular OTs

00:32:02.261 --> 00:32:04.602
also are up there with just,

00:32:05.761 --> 00:32:06.863
there's a high degree of

00:32:06.903 --> 00:32:08.603
inventiveness that they

00:32:08.663 --> 00:32:11.144
have to do on a daily basis

00:32:11.163 --> 00:32:12.663
to accommodate their patients,

00:32:13.325 --> 00:32:15.025
whether that's, you know, um,

00:32:15.970 --> 00:32:16.931
dealing with a mobility

00:32:16.990 --> 00:32:19.092
issue or a limitation of their movement.

00:32:19.471 --> 00:32:20.972
They're very, very creative.

00:32:22.213 --> 00:32:24.255
So if they don't have the

00:32:24.375 --> 00:32:25.796
engineering skills,

00:32:25.816 --> 00:32:27.396
and I'm using engineering broadly,

00:32:27.436 --> 00:32:29.498
like it can even just be

00:32:29.538 --> 00:32:32.339
know how to cut some wood and glue stuff,

00:32:32.619 --> 00:32:33.819
make physical objects.

00:32:35.608 --> 00:32:37.230
Being able to find someone

00:32:37.349 --> 00:32:39.671
like a resource who is good at that,

00:32:40.270 --> 00:32:42.031
to be able to get their ideas,

00:32:42.132 --> 00:32:43.232
not just on paper,

00:32:43.313 --> 00:32:45.814
but something tangible they can touch.

00:32:49.155 --> 00:32:52.377
I recognize that PT school doesn't teach

00:32:54.238 --> 00:32:55.459
their students how to be

00:32:55.538 --> 00:32:57.219
engineers necessarily.

00:32:57.740 --> 00:32:58.180
However,

00:32:58.259 --> 00:32:59.539
I think that there is some innate

00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:00.619
qualities that actually

00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.122
make PTs uniquely suited to

00:33:04.142 --> 00:33:05.761
be entrepreneurs in this space.

00:33:05.961 --> 00:33:08.603
And part of that is just, again,

00:33:08.623 --> 00:33:10.044
their resourcefulness and

00:33:10.064 --> 00:33:12.564
inventiveness towards finding solutions.

00:33:14.585 --> 00:33:15.767
I think that in terms of

00:33:15.988 --> 00:33:18.011
identifying a product,

00:33:18.792 --> 00:33:21.498
that's pretty easy and

00:33:21.518 --> 00:33:22.559
that's pretty standard.

00:33:22.780 --> 00:33:26.106
You look for what people are

00:33:26.126 --> 00:33:26.907
complaining about.

00:33:27.897 --> 00:33:28.198
You know,

00:33:28.458 --> 00:33:30.799
the reason Lyft and Uber took

00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:32.441
hold is because people

00:33:32.520 --> 00:33:34.142
really weren't happy with taxis.

00:33:34.541 --> 00:33:35.682
Like they got an A to B,

00:33:35.742 --> 00:33:37.163
but they were a little bit

00:33:37.223 --> 00:33:38.703
smelly and like they never

00:33:38.763 --> 00:33:40.105
showed up on time.

00:33:40.144 --> 00:33:42.866
They got drivers that weren't reliable,

00:33:43.547 --> 00:33:43.846
you know,

00:33:43.926 --> 00:33:46.969
so they put that space opened up

00:33:47.028 --> 00:33:49.911
because the taxis weren't delivering,

00:33:50.250 --> 00:33:50.711
you know,

00:33:51.071 --> 00:33:51.751
they weren't meeting the

00:33:51.791 --> 00:33:53.333
expectations of the customers.

00:33:54.471 --> 00:33:55.991
So anytime you hear, oh,

00:33:56.432 --> 00:33:57.913
I wish this was a little bit tighter, or,

00:33:58.134 --> 00:34:00.135
oh, this always keeps falling off,

00:34:00.336 --> 00:34:02.978
or there's opportunities,

00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:05.381
there's an opportunity there.

00:34:06.060 --> 00:34:06.201
Now,

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:08.903
maybe there's not a cost-effective

00:34:08.923 --> 00:34:11.525
solution for it yet, but in our case,

00:34:12.186 --> 00:34:13.126
part of it was waiting for

00:34:13.166 --> 00:34:14.548
the technology to catch up.

00:34:15.048 --> 00:34:16.530
You know, twenty years ago,

00:34:17.570 --> 00:34:18.411
we had tried this twenty

00:34:18.431 --> 00:34:19.753
years ago when three

00:34:19.793 --> 00:34:21.293
printers were fifteen

00:34:21.333 --> 00:34:23.856
thousand dollars and off

00:34:23.896 --> 00:34:25.516
the shelf infrared cameras

00:34:25.556 --> 00:34:26.918
that plugged into USB were

00:34:26.978 --> 00:34:29.639
not a day away from Amazon.

00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:31.041
That would have been that

00:34:31.061 --> 00:34:32.101
would looked very different

00:34:32.262 --> 00:34:33.543
for us to be able to try

00:34:33.583 --> 00:34:34.784
and make something like this.

00:34:35.344 --> 00:34:36.804
But the fact that I was able to do it.

00:34:37.778 --> 00:34:39.119
from off the shelf parts

00:34:40.081 --> 00:34:40.942
just speaks to that.

00:34:41.021 --> 00:34:41.202
You know,

00:34:41.222 --> 00:34:43.324
we kind of leapfrogged over a

00:34:43.403 --> 00:34:46.887
number of legacy technologies.

00:34:47.306 --> 00:34:49.449
You know, there's no V Lena had a,

00:34:49.509 --> 00:34:51.791
what a DVD or VHS recorder

00:34:51.831 --> 00:34:53.072
for some of her goggles.

00:34:53.713 --> 00:34:54.813
We didn't know we went right

00:34:54.833 --> 00:34:55.454
to the computer.

00:34:55.673 --> 00:34:57.135
You know, we, at that point,

00:34:57.195 --> 00:34:59.378
most people had laptops so

00:34:59.498 --> 00:35:00.398
we didn't have to worry

00:35:00.418 --> 00:35:02.320
about a dedicated machine.

00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:03.760
And that's that again,

00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:05.342
we couldn't have done that years ago.

00:35:06.478 --> 00:35:07.340
So I feel like the lessons

00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:09.440
that I heard you say is number one,

00:35:10.762 --> 00:35:11.742
you don't have to do it alone.

00:35:12.322 --> 00:35:13.143
So if you get stuck,

00:35:14.184 --> 00:35:15.144
you can a hundred percent

00:35:15.684 --> 00:35:17.326
phone a friend or make a friend.

00:35:18.347 --> 00:35:19.286
The other is instead of

00:35:19.327 --> 00:35:20.588
running away from complaints,

00:35:20.989 --> 00:35:22.208
start to listen intently

00:35:22.530 --> 00:35:23.510
when there are complaints.

00:35:24.170 --> 00:35:25.170
And then the third lesson

00:35:25.552 --> 00:35:27.032
that I think I heard you say was,

00:35:27.913 --> 00:35:30.215
And sometimes it's not right right now.

00:35:30.576 --> 00:35:31.577
So to continually pay

00:35:31.617 --> 00:35:33.159
attention to what has

00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:34.900
changed and what can I use

00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:36.481
to adapt to that?

00:35:37.262 --> 00:35:38.603
Helena, he covered some big ones there.

00:35:38.623 --> 00:35:39.085
Advice.

00:35:39.324 --> 00:35:40.246
Is there any that he didn't

00:35:40.266 --> 00:35:41.427
that you'd want to share

00:35:41.447 --> 00:35:42.507
with a clinician who maybe

00:35:42.547 --> 00:35:44.130
was is maybe what I call on

00:35:44.150 --> 00:35:45.371
the edge of a diving board?

00:35:45.431 --> 00:35:46.572
Like they're thinking about it,

00:35:46.612 --> 00:35:48.074
but they're not sure if

00:35:48.094 --> 00:35:48.994
they should leap or not.

00:35:49.704 --> 00:35:51.686
yeah so I mean I think I can

00:35:51.726 --> 00:35:52.606
definitely speak to a

00:35:52.666 --> 00:35:54.286
clinician's mindset of time

00:35:54.306 --> 00:35:55.668
you know there's a sense of

00:35:55.688 --> 00:35:56.548
like there's not enough

00:35:56.608 --> 00:35:58.449
time we have so much to get

00:35:58.510 --> 00:36:01.150
done documentation I got a

00:36:01.170 --> 00:36:02.472
call about this patient's

00:36:02.711 --> 00:36:06.574
afo what have you so I would say that

00:36:08.206 --> 00:36:09.626
it's a choice for sure.

00:36:09.746 --> 00:36:10.967
You might say, I have an idea,

00:36:11.027 --> 00:36:11.748
but you know what?

00:36:11.887 --> 00:36:13.367
I think that's not where I'm

00:36:13.407 --> 00:36:15.668
called to do is to really

00:36:15.708 --> 00:36:16.969
kind of drive an idea forward.

00:36:17.489 --> 00:36:18.329
But you might have a second

00:36:18.369 --> 00:36:19.929
person who says, I have an idea.

00:36:20.630 --> 00:36:21.889
I do feel called to it.

00:36:21.909 --> 00:36:23.871
I'm going to quote unquote, make the time.

00:36:23.951 --> 00:36:24.570
And maybe that means you'd

00:36:24.590 --> 00:36:25.550
give up personal time,

00:36:25.590 --> 00:36:27.092
which certainly I think

00:36:27.211 --> 00:36:28.351
anyone who starts a business,

00:36:28.371 --> 00:36:29.112
whether it's your

00:36:29.152 --> 00:36:31.193
traditional private practice,

00:36:31.452 --> 00:36:33.472
physical therapy clinic,

00:36:33.652 --> 00:36:36.213
or it's running a medical device business,

00:36:36.253 --> 00:36:36.594
you're going to

00:36:37.831 --> 00:36:40.914
make choices and make sacrifices, right?

00:36:40.974 --> 00:36:43.556
So you want to make sure you're passionate,

00:36:43.615 --> 00:36:44.717
I guess would be my advice.

00:36:44.757 --> 00:36:46.418
Like if you're just kind of like, oh,

00:36:46.677 --> 00:36:47.878
I think I could do a better TheraBand,

00:36:47.898 --> 00:36:49.278
but you don't care about it that much,

00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:51.561
unless it's really easy to achieve,

00:36:51.581 --> 00:36:52.400
which chances are someone

00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:53.641
would have already done it if it was.

00:36:55.409 --> 00:36:56.271
then maybe that's not what

00:36:56.291 --> 00:36:56.871
you're called to do.

00:36:56.891 --> 00:36:57.831
And that's okay.

00:36:58.911 --> 00:36:59.532
But, you know,

00:36:59.773 --> 00:37:01.514
I certainly felt very strongly Patrick,

00:37:01.954 --> 00:37:02.275
you know,

00:37:02.315 --> 00:37:03.976
kind of got maybe the vestibular

00:37:03.996 --> 00:37:05.657
bug from me a little bit

00:37:05.876 --> 00:37:07.737
and became more passionate

00:37:07.777 --> 00:37:08.579
about helping people with

00:37:08.619 --> 00:37:10.340
dizziness and understanding

00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:12.181
that physical therapists

00:37:12.201 --> 00:37:12.961
help so many different

00:37:12.981 --> 00:37:14.322
people in so many different ways.

00:37:14.782 --> 00:37:16.384
But I think that anyone

00:37:16.403 --> 00:37:17.125
who's had vertigo or

00:37:17.144 --> 00:37:19.025
dizziness or unexplained falls,

00:37:19.706 --> 00:37:21.728
it can be a really huge for

00:37:21.768 --> 00:37:23.449
sure life impact there.

00:37:23.548 --> 00:37:23.909
And so

00:37:25.349 --> 00:37:25.384
Thank you.

00:37:25.768 --> 00:37:26.809
I think for me at least,

00:37:26.909 --> 00:37:30.050
it's not only worth it to help patients.

00:37:30.070 --> 00:37:30.931
We've helped literally

00:37:30.971 --> 00:37:31.731
millions of patients.

00:37:31.751 --> 00:37:33.072
We did the math on a

00:37:33.132 --> 00:37:34.112
conservative estimate.

00:37:34.614 --> 00:37:35.393
Millions of patients that

00:37:35.414 --> 00:37:36.554
have been touched by our goggles.

00:37:36.695 --> 00:37:37.695
So that's pretty awesome.

00:37:38.255 --> 00:37:38.996
And then, of course,

00:37:39.036 --> 00:37:41.777
empowering these clinicians, again,

00:37:41.838 --> 00:37:43.539
to feel like they can do

00:37:44.019 --> 00:37:46.141
their best job and create

00:37:46.181 --> 00:37:47.422
educational support for them,

00:37:47.442 --> 00:37:48.543
which we've also done.

00:37:48.963 --> 00:37:49.862
So just really being a part

00:37:49.903 --> 00:37:51.364
of the greater vestibular community,

00:37:51.384 --> 00:37:52.184
which there are so many

00:37:52.264 --> 00:37:54.827
wonderful clinicians, researchers,

00:37:55.686 --> 00:38:00.090
and advocates, educators.

00:38:00.572 --> 00:38:01.572
And so being able to really

00:38:01.612 --> 00:38:03.313
be a part of that and to really help.

00:38:03.934 --> 00:38:05.135
Someone's like, oh, I'm running a course.

00:38:05.155 --> 00:38:06.516
Can you put it up on your social media?

00:38:06.617 --> 00:38:07.458
Happy to do that.

00:38:07.557 --> 00:38:10.942
I really love that we have

00:38:11.617 --> 00:38:12.759
been able to grow in such a

00:38:12.798 --> 00:38:14.880
way that we have a bit of a name,

00:38:15.001 --> 00:38:16.322
a good reputation, I think,

00:38:17.364 --> 00:38:20.947
that we're able to help in so many ways.

00:38:21.128 --> 00:38:25.251
So yeah, for me, if it's your passion,

00:38:25.291 --> 00:38:27.114
you'll be able to sort it out,

00:38:27.193 --> 00:38:28.474
find the right resources,

00:38:28.655 --> 00:38:30.356
ask the questions,

00:38:30.376 --> 00:38:31.577
look for the people to help you.

00:38:31.617 --> 00:38:32.559
You do not have to do it alone.

00:38:32.619 --> 00:38:33.900
I totally agree with Patrick on that.

00:38:35.942 --> 00:38:36.882
And then let your passion

00:38:36.923 --> 00:38:37.844
carry you forward.

00:38:38.045 --> 00:38:38.445
And you know,

00:38:38.465 --> 00:38:40.068
just keep being open to feedback, which,

00:38:40.668 --> 00:38:40.909
you know,

00:38:40.969 --> 00:38:42.030
most clinicians hopefully get a

00:38:42.070 --> 00:38:43.012
lot of practice with that

00:38:43.032 --> 00:38:44.594
when we're in our rotations

00:38:44.634 --> 00:38:45.436
and internships.

00:38:45.496 --> 00:38:47.418
And so that's,

00:38:47.539 --> 00:38:48.139
that's something we want to

00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:51.043
continue to do so that we can, you know,

00:38:51.103 --> 00:38:51.824
be more helpful.

00:38:52.597 --> 00:38:54.038
Sounds like your first step

00:38:54.057 --> 00:38:55.998
was something I avoided at

00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:57.500
all costs during PT school,

00:38:57.519 --> 00:38:58.661
which was a self-assessment

00:38:58.681 --> 00:38:59.460
or a reflection.

00:38:59.501 --> 00:38:59.842
Like, hey,

00:38:59.942 --> 00:39:01.623
is this a problem I'm going to

00:39:01.663 --> 00:39:03.684
be passionate on solving a week, a month,

00:39:03.943 --> 00:39:04.724
a year from now?

00:39:05.344 --> 00:39:06.166
Or is it something I just

00:39:06.226 --> 00:39:07.927
wish someone else would hopefully solve,

00:39:07.987 --> 00:39:08.146
right?

00:39:08.186 --> 00:39:09.947
And really do that self-assessment, right?

00:39:09.967 --> 00:39:11.009
Because as you mentioned,

00:39:11.028 --> 00:39:12.909
you're going to need to invest something,

00:39:12.969 --> 00:39:15.492
time, effort, money, blood, sweat, tears,

00:39:15.811 --> 00:39:16.012
right?

00:39:16.251 --> 00:39:18.192
um and then all the above a

00:39:18.231 --> 00:39:19.132
mixture of all the above

00:39:19.632 --> 00:39:21.193
and then um I also heard

00:39:21.213 --> 00:39:22.253
you talk about calling

00:39:22.353 --> 00:39:23.494
which is hey what could I

00:39:24.034 --> 00:39:25.134
what will this allow me to

00:39:25.253 --> 00:39:27.833
do or access or help or yes

00:39:27.994 --> 00:39:30.835
and for for uh for a group

00:39:30.855 --> 00:39:32.414
of people or for a

00:39:32.474 --> 00:39:34.115
pathology or for a

00:39:34.175 --> 00:39:35.496
community right so you're

00:39:35.516 --> 00:39:36.556
able to super serve this

00:39:36.576 --> 00:39:38.077
community that was similar

00:39:38.117 --> 00:39:39.317
to you we went back to that

00:39:39.416 --> 00:39:40.476
how did you actually decide

00:39:40.496 --> 00:39:41.657
if this was a viable market

00:39:42.097 --> 00:39:44.137
is you looked at yourself and then others

00:39:44.858 --> 00:39:45.177
All right,

00:39:45.197 --> 00:39:47.679
last question I'll ask is for Patrick.

00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:48.661
You told me this story,

00:39:48.780 --> 00:39:49.702
and people have to know.

00:39:50.583 --> 00:39:51.682
Vestibular First.

00:39:52.543 --> 00:39:54.005
Why is it called Vestibular First?

00:39:57.407 --> 00:39:57.768
Yeah,

00:39:57.827 --> 00:40:01.972
so the name... So one of the original

00:40:02.172 --> 00:40:03.492
names that we were

00:40:03.532 --> 00:40:06.614
brainstorming was kind of

00:40:06.635 --> 00:40:08.416
got to the heart of what Helena wants,

00:40:08.516 --> 00:40:10.297
and it was called Goggles for the People.

00:40:10.318 --> 00:40:11.278
Okay.

00:40:11.458 --> 00:40:11.719
And...

00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:16.942
That actually did make it into our mission,

00:40:17.422 --> 00:40:20.043
like one of our stated missions.

00:40:20.963 --> 00:40:21.664
And that's the idea of

00:40:21.704 --> 00:40:24.286
keeping it accessible.

00:40:24.306 --> 00:40:28.847
But I'm the ideas person in the sense,

00:40:31.369 --> 00:40:32.889
I like to get ideas from everybody,

00:40:32.949 --> 00:40:35.190
but my brain tends to

00:40:36.530 --> 00:40:39.012
spider out and tends to say, okay, well,

00:40:39.512 --> 00:40:41.134
I can do this and I can do that, that,

00:40:41.173 --> 00:40:41.574
and that.

00:40:42.173 --> 00:40:45.376
and um so we were uh I had

00:40:45.416 --> 00:40:47.018
just built a one of the

00:40:47.057 --> 00:40:49.619
initial versions and while

00:40:49.639 --> 00:40:50.900
I was looking for infrared

00:40:51.181 --> 00:40:53.643
cameras I also noticed that

00:40:53.682 --> 00:40:56.043
infrared goggles like night

00:40:56.063 --> 00:40:57.985
vision goggles were also

00:40:58.085 --> 00:41:00.047
really expensive and I was

00:41:00.106 --> 00:41:01.568
like well what if I mounted

00:41:01.688 --> 00:41:03.289
our cameras on the front

00:41:03.889 --> 00:41:05.690
had used the smartphone on

00:41:05.731 --> 00:41:07.652
the inside I could make a

00:41:07.713 --> 00:41:09.233
night vision goggle for like

00:41:09.733 --> 00:41:11.436
a hundred bucks instead of

00:41:11.476 --> 00:41:13.297
it being like six or seven hundred.

00:41:13.318 --> 00:41:14.960
You use a smartphone and this and that.

00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:17.802
And so as I'm telling this to Helena,

00:41:18.724 --> 00:41:19.824
she's like, she's like,

00:41:20.585 --> 00:41:21.626
she knows me by now.

00:41:21.806 --> 00:41:22.967
We've been married long enough.

00:41:23.668 --> 00:41:25.690
And she knows how my brain

00:41:25.731 --> 00:41:26.510
works in that way.

00:41:26.592 --> 00:41:28.793
But she's like, OK, that's great.

00:41:28.853 --> 00:41:31.016
But let's do vestibular first.

00:41:31.215 --> 00:41:31.396
And

00:41:32.141 --> 00:41:33.963
I was like, wait, there's the name.

00:41:34.224 --> 00:41:36.286
Like, that's the name right there.

00:41:37.527 --> 00:41:38.690
So it happened,

00:41:39.190 --> 00:41:40.911
it came out of Helena's

00:41:40.952 --> 00:41:42.753
knowledge of how my brain works,

00:41:42.793 --> 00:41:44.516
but also knowing, you know,

00:41:45.961 --> 00:41:47.402
She is the marathon runner

00:41:47.963 --> 00:41:48.945
and I'm the sprinter.

00:41:49.545 --> 00:41:50.385
So, you know,

00:41:50.425 --> 00:41:52.527
she knows I'm going to get distracted and,

00:41:52.628 --> 00:41:53.349
you know,

00:41:53.429 --> 00:41:55.010
I'm going to find five other

00:41:55.030 --> 00:41:55.952
things to do.

00:41:56.713 --> 00:41:58.193
So she's definitely the one

00:41:58.233 --> 00:42:00.476
who helps keep the focus on

00:42:00.516 --> 00:42:01.637
the long term goal.

00:42:02.237 --> 00:42:03.619
And, you know,

00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:06.021
I think that's that the name

00:42:06.061 --> 00:42:07.983
stems from that direction setting.

00:42:08.943 --> 00:42:09.884
It's a good built-in story.

00:42:09.903 --> 00:42:10.364
All right,

00:42:10.384 --> 00:42:11.344
last thing we do on the show is

00:42:11.385 --> 00:42:12.184
the parting shot.

00:42:12.945 --> 00:42:13.885
And I'll sort of,

00:42:14.304 --> 00:42:15.364
usually I just leave it open-ended,

00:42:15.385 --> 00:42:16.025
but I wanted it to be a

00:42:16.125 --> 00:42:17.246
little bit specific but

00:42:17.286 --> 00:42:18.266
open-ended from you.

00:42:19.045 --> 00:42:20.385
You'll know that this

00:42:21.025 --> 00:42:23.706
endeavor is successful five

00:42:23.746 --> 00:42:25.626
years from now if what?

00:42:26.186 --> 00:42:27.447
How will you define success?

00:42:27.467 --> 00:42:28.427
It's already a success.

00:42:28.668 --> 00:42:33.628
You've already helped millions of people.

00:42:33.728 --> 00:42:33.989
Hmm.

00:42:39.402 --> 00:42:40.822
To me, I would say,

00:42:43.244 --> 00:42:44.443
to me success would be

00:42:44.503 --> 00:42:47.965
being able to cover the two

00:42:48.025 --> 00:42:51.585
other areas that we,

00:42:51.626 --> 00:42:53.867
the two other technological

00:42:54.706 --> 00:42:56.568
thing gaps that are out there.

00:42:57.288 --> 00:43:00.228
One is the ocular motor tests,

00:43:00.728 --> 00:43:01.929
making that accessible.

00:43:02.809 --> 00:43:05.110
And the next would be eye tracking.

00:43:05.409 --> 00:43:06.449
being able to make

00:43:06.690 --> 00:43:10.192
accessible and very easy to

00:43:10.331 --> 00:43:11.652
use eye tracking for

00:43:12.432 --> 00:43:18.596
introductory or beginner clinicians.

00:43:18.655 --> 00:43:18.815
Yep.

00:43:19.155 --> 00:43:23.038
And I would say that we lost Jimmy.

00:43:25.318 --> 00:43:26.099
Should I still answer?

00:43:26.179 --> 00:43:26.818
I don't even know.

00:43:28.219 --> 00:43:29.240
I know he can edit.

00:43:29.380 --> 00:43:30.420
He said he's going to edit it.

00:43:31.661 --> 00:43:32.461
Yeah.

00:43:32.481 --> 00:43:33.181
Should I wait till he comes

00:43:33.202 --> 00:43:34.643
back on to answer?

00:43:34.682 --> 00:43:34.862
Yeah.

00:43:36.304 --> 00:43:37.585
I think so.

00:43:37.784 --> 00:43:38.626
Sure.

00:43:38.666 --> 00:43:43.208
All right.

00:43:43.268 --> 00:43:45.630
How do you like this interface?

00:43:45.650 --> 00:43:46.411
Do you think it'll be good

00:43:46.452 --> 00:43:47.231
for journal club?

00:43:48.532 --> 00:43:49.373
Yeah, I think it can work.

00:43:49.934 --> 00:43:50.135
I mean,

00:43:50.155 --> 00:43:51.376
we haven't tried it with the PowerPoint.

00:43:51.416 --> 00:43:52.195
He was showing me how it

00:43:52.215 --> 00:43:52.876
would work and it looked

00:43:52.896 --> 00:43:53.456
like it would work.

00:43:53.516 --> 00:43:54.217
You know what I mean?

00:43:56.219 --> 00:43:57.519
I think it'll be less work overall.

00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:01.003
That's one of my goals for, for you.

00:44:01.914 --> 00:44:02.153
Yes,

00:44:02.233 --> 00:44:04.675
I like the idea of it being almost

00:44:04.936 --> 00:44:06.657
edited right away.

00:44:07.757 --> 00:44:08.378
Right.

00:44:08.818 --> 00:44:10.659
Very straightforward on the editing side.

00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:12.001
Definitely.

00:44:12.340 --> 00:44:13.561
Let's see if he sent a

00:44:13.621 --> 00:44:18.405
message or something.

00:44:18.425 --> 00:44:21.027
I don't see anything yet.

00:44:21.108 --> 00:44:21.748
I have lost him.

00:44:23.809 --> 00:44:25.070
Usually his internet's pretty good.

00:44:25.090 --> 00:44:26.871
I know.

00:44:26.911 --> 00:44:27.632
He sent me a note.

00:44:27.731 --> 00:44:28.693
Hold on, let's see what it says.

00:44:28.713 --> 00:44:29.934
Yeah, take your time.

00:44:34.784 --> 00:44:38.128
Internet issues, hang tight.

00:44:38.849 --> 00:44:39.048
Okay.

00:44:39.088 --> 00:44:41.510
He's in route to come back.

00:44:42.311 --> 00:44:43.972
Got it.

00:44:44.012 --> 00:44:46.155
Still being recorded.

00:44:46.215 --> 00:44:46.494
Yes.

00:45:14.233 --> 00:45:14.755
That's fine.

00:45:50.382 --> 00:45:51.923
Okay, we'll just wait.

00:45:51.943 --> 00:45:52.204
Okay.

00:46:38.556 --> 00:46:39.536
It feels like Chinese New

00:46:39.577 --> 00:46:41.277
Year's happens more

00:46:41.336 --> 00:46:42.416
frequently than I remember.

00:46:43.177 --> 00:46:43.878
More frequently?

00:46:46.923 --> 00:46:48.525
It just comes up so quickly.

00:46:49.927 --> 00:46:50.608
Only once a year.

00:46:50.628 --> 00:46:52.269
They do have at least one other holiday,

00:46:52.309 --> 00:46:53.411
though, that they seem,

00:46:53.990 --> 00:46:54.992
I think they close for.

00:46:55.873 --> 00:46:59.577
Yeah.

00:46:59.637 --> 00:47:00.518
So maybe that also

00:47:00.557 --> 00:47:01.759
contributes to the feeling.

00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:04.561
Yeah, I think so.

00:47:14.155 --> 00:47:15.235
I think I'm going to swap my

00:47:15.315 --> 00:47:16.737
vestibular apparatus slash

00:47:16.777 --> 00:47:18.219
saccalutricle for just my

00:47:18.259 --> 00:47:22.222
vestibular apparatus behind me.

00:47:27.728 --> 00:47:27.909
Yeah,

00:47:27.929 --> 00:47:30.070
I wasn't sure how you wanted to do that.

00:47:30.090 --> 00:47:30.851
It's OK.

00:47:32.927 --> 00:47:34.168
Oh, there you are.

00:47:34.208 --> 00:47:35.588
Hey, this platform always works.

00:47:35.728 --> 00:47:36.389
It was my internet.

00:47:36.648 --> 00:47:37.550
It wasn't the platform.

00:47:37.590 --> 00:47:38.050
Can't blame that.

00:47:38.070 --> 00:47:38.309
All right.

00:47:38.451 --> 00:47:39.530
The good thing is we can

00:47:39.550 --> 00:47:40.291
just start from the beginning.

00:47:40.351 --> 00:47:40.791
All right.

00:47:40.811 --> 00:47:41.873
So you already know the question here.

00:47:42.713 --> 00:47:43.253
Parting shot,

00:47:43.293 --> 00:47:45.514
I usually keep pretty open-ended,

00:47:45.675 --> 00:47:47.255
but I wanted to be a little more specific,

00:47:47.315 --> 00:47:48.217
especially with a series

00:47:48.237 --> 00:47:48.836
that we're talking with

00:47:48.896 --> 00:47:50.557
people in similar situations.

00:47:51.358 --> 00:47:53.440
But five years from now,

00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:55.400
what would happen for you to say, hey,

00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:57.742
this is even more of a success?

00:47:57.882 --> 00:47:59.043
It's already become a business.

00:47:59.244 --> 00:47:59.844
It's already this thing that

00:47:59.864 --> 00:48:01.224
you're able to touch millions of people,

00:48:01.264 --> 00:48:01.846
as you mentioned.

00:48:02.545 --> 00:48:05.911
But you have to set a goal, like a PT,

00:48:06.112 --> 00:48:06.974
otherwise you won't achieve it.

00:48:07.054 --> 00:48:08.056
You won't know when you've gotten there.

00:48:08.135 --> 00:48:10.380
So for each of you, in the next five years,

00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:11.322
what are some things that

00:48:11.362 --> 00:48:12.262
might happen for you to

00:48:12.302 --> 00:48:14.166
consider it more of a success?

00:48:14.367 --> 00:48:15.248
Helena, we'll start with you.

00:48:16.498 --> 00:48:16.818
Sure.

00:48:16.898 --> 00:48:18.719
So I think for me,

00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:20.621
what I'd like to see happen

00:48:20.721 --> 00:48:24.061
is anyone who wants to have

00:48:24.222 --> 00:48:26.603
access to at least what

00:48:26.623 --> 00:48:29.264
I'll call basic vestibular technology.

00:48:30.144 --> 00:48:30.905
So what we have are

00:48:31.025 --> 00:48:33.306
entry-level infrared video goggles,

00:48:33.465 --> 00:48:34.806
ideally even entry-level

00:48:34.927 --> 00:48:38.489
ocular motor recording of those tests,

00:48:38.509 --> 00:48:39.588
saccades, and so forth,

00:48:40.849 --> 00:48:43.090
that they would have a way to get access.

00:48:43.110 --> 00:48:43.811
So whether that's

00:48:44.326 --> 00:48:46.027
through purchase and again,

00:48:46.067 --> 00:48:47.547
perhaps through our not-for-profit.

00:48:47.567 --> 00:48:48.327
I don't know if five years

00:48:48.367 --> 00:48:49.027
is reasonable if we're

00:48:49.047 --> 00:48:50.369
gonna be on the tenure mark for that one,

00:48:50.409 --> 00:48:53.070
but I would love to really

00:48:53.170 --> 00:48:54.389
grow that access.

00:48:55.070 --> 00:48:59.472
And with that, I would love to have most,

00:48:59.853 --> 00:49:00.572
well, no,

00:49:00.592 --> 00:49:01.413
I would love to have every

00:49:01.432 --> 00:49:03.273
healthcare provider know

00:49:03.293 --> 00:49:04.355
what the vestibular system

00:49:04.534 --> 00:49:07.235
is and have some base

00:49:07.275 --> 00:49:09.657
knowledge on proper referral.

00:49:10.396 --> 00:49:11.958
I see a lot more,

00:49:12.590 --> 00:49:14.012
physical therapists and

00:49:14.211 --> 00:49:16.634
other healthcare providers,

00:49:16.733 --> 00:49:17.695
occupational therapies

00:49:17.715 --> 00:49:19.936
getting into some vestibular care now,

00:49:20.336 --> 00:49:21.557
which I think is awesome.

00:49:22.579 --> 00:49:25.161
Seeing more other kind of

00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:26.782
specialty like physician

00:49:26.822 --> 00:49:27.922
assistants who work for

00:49:27.983 --> 00:49:30.585
ENTs who are kind of branching out.

00:49:30.605 --> 00:49:31.505
So the more people we can

00:49:31.545 --> 00:49:33.427
get who are gonna be direct,

00:49:34.108 --> 00:49:35.608
sources of support for these

00:49:35.648 --> 00:49:37.731
patients and to be a part

00:49:37.771 --> 00:49:38.371
of what I'll call the

00:49:38.411 --> 00:49:40.413
broader vestibular healthcare community.

00:49:41.034 --> 00:49:42.215
I just want to see that grow

00:49:42.255 --> 00:49:43.496
because I know right now

00:49:43.536 --> 00:49:45.717
there are huge gaps for

00:49:45.757 --> 00:49:47.998
patients where they have a need,

00:49:48.018 --> 00:49:49.119
but there's no one close to

00:49:49.139 --> 00:49:50.201
them physically to help

00:49:50.240 --> 00:49:51.481
them or they're not sure

00:49:51.501 --> 00:49:52.483
how to get information.

00:49:53.043 --> 00:49:54.505
So I just want to grow that

00:49:54.525 --> 00:49:56.585
to the level of the heart and the lungs.

00:49:57.226 --> 00:49:59.068
Almost everybody in the US

00:49:59.108 --> 00:49:59.989
knows about the heart and

00:50:00.009 --> 00:50:01.250
the lungs and who I should

00:50:01.289 --> 00:50:02.530
probably see if I'm having

00:50:02.550 --> 00:50:03.331
a problem with them.

00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:05.840
So if we can get to that

00:50:05.900 --> 00:50:08.063
level and we can be a part of that,

00:50:08.123 --> 00:50:09.884
like educational process, I'll say,

00:50:09.943 --> 00:50:10.664
and kind of connecting

00:50:10.684 --> 00:50:11.686
those healthcare providers,

00:50:11.726 --> 00:50:12.586
which we're working on with

00:50:12.626 --> 00:50:13.487
Dizzy Care Network,

00:50:13.927 --> 00:50:14.909
which is a separate company,

00:50:14.949 --> 00:50:16.010
but still ours.

00:50:16.570 --> 00:50:17.931
I think that to me,

00:50:17.990 --> 00:50:19.393
like it all goes together.

00:50:20.278 --> 00:50:21.159
I mean, you know,

00:50:21.219 --> 00:50:22.663
goggles for the people is good,

00:50:22.722 --> 00:50:24.625
but the stethoscope for the

00:50:24.664 --> 00:50:25.706
vestibular system,

00:50:25.766 --> 00:50:28.090
if you want to expand the heart and lungs,

00:50:28.311 --> 00:50:30.012
sort of feels like a good explanation.

00:50:31.034 --> 00:50:32.536
Five years, you can accomplish that.

00:50:32.597 --> 00:50:33.498
Patrick, same question.

00:50:33.518 --> 00:50:34.398
Five years from now,

00:50:34.860 --> 00:50:35.800
what might success look

00:50:35.820 --> 00:50:36.722
like or more success?

00:50:38.416 --> 00:50:38.815
Yeah,

00:50:38.916 --> 00:50:42.038
so definitely on the product roadmap side,

00:50:42.898 --> 00:50:44.179
the goggle,

00:50:44.300 --> 00:50:45.960
the ocular motor goggles that

00:50:46.001 --> 00:50:47.362
Helena has mentioned will be,

00:50:47.882 --> 00:50:49.103
that'll basically allow us

00:50:49.143 --> 00:50:51.164
to do the full set of tests.

00:50:51.583 --> 00:50:51.764
You know,

00:50:51.784 --> 00:50:54.505
we initially chose the infrared

00:50:54.905 --> 00:50:56.266
first because we knew that

00:50:56.768 --> 00:50:58.168
that had the highest demand

00:50:59.048 --> 00:51:00.550
and it had the least number

00:51:00.610 --> 00:51:02.291
of substitutes, you know,

00:51:02.311 --> 00:51:04.052
because you can do the, you know,

00:51:04.092 --> 00:51:05.193
follow my finger test

00:51:07.036 --> 00:51:08.802
in room light without goggles at all.

00:51:08.961 --> 00:51:10.224
So whereas infrared's a

00:51:10.244 --> 00:51:13.273
little bit harder to do that ad hoc.

00:51:14.092 --> 00:51:15.373
The other piece is being

00:51:15.413 --> 00:51:17.173
able to bring eye tracking

00:51:17.934 --> 00:51:19.335
and making that accessible.

00:51:19.815 --> 00:51:21.414
So part of my background is

00:51:21.454 --> 00:51:22.815
actually data visualization.

00:51:23.775 --> 00:51:26.617
So we're working on a way to

00:51:26.657 --> 00:51:28.197
make it to where a brand

00:51:28.237 --> 00:51:30.777
new clinician who doesn't

00:51:30.797 --> 00:51:31.679
know how to read line

00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:35.380
charts are able to intuitively

00:51:37.061 --> 00:51:38.722
see the eye movements in a

00:51:38.782 --> 00:51:40.342
way that make it even

00:51:40.402 --> 00:51:43.184
quicker and more accurate to diagnose.

00:51:44.286 --> 00:51:45.226
The eye movements is

00:51:45.266 --> 00:51:47.409
something that they are very subtle,

00:51:47.469 --> 00:51:48.369
they're really fast,

00:51:48.409 --> 00:51:50.710
and sometimes they're hard

00:51:50.891 --> 00:51:52.612
to observe carefully.

00:51:54.766 --> 00:51:55.527
So part of that,

00:51:56.088 --> 00:51:58.570
the other piece I know I

00:51:58.590 --> 00:52:00.692
have to add to the space is

00:52:01.012 --> 00:52:02.634
making very intuitive and

00:52:02.673 --> 00:52:04.615
accessible eye-tracking

00:52:04.635 --> 00:52:05.936
visualizations that will

00:52:05.976 --> 00:52:09.900
make that even easier for

00:52:09.981 --> 00:52:11.322
all the allied professionals,

00:52:11.382 --> 00:52:12.322
not just PTs.

00:52:15.322 --> 00:52:17.224
And then I think the last piece,

00:52:17.384 --> 00:52:18.465
Helena alluded to it,

00:52:18.565 --> 00:52:20.385
is the launch of Dizzy Care Network.

00:52:21.067 --> 00:52:23.309
So a technology that came

00:52:23.329 --> 00:52:24.250
out of Mayo Clinic,

00:52:25.090 --> 00:52:26.190
basically helping to

00:52:26.291 --> 00:52:28.632
connect undiagnosed dizzy

00:52:28.672 --> 00:52:30.193
patients to the right

00:52:30.215 --> 00:52:32.135
clinician the first time.

00:52:33.237 --> 00:52:34.137
That's something that we're

00:52:34.157 --> 00:52:36.400
working on and I anticipate

00:52:37.099 --> 00:52:39.322
if that goes well, then within five years,

00:52:39.601 --> 00:52:41.083
you know, my goal is to have

00:52:42.213 --> 00:52:42.554
you know,

00:52:43.014 --> 00:52:44.476
let's say a hundred thousand

00:52:44.516 --> 00:52:46.396
patients connected to the

00:52:46.456 --> 00:52:48.940
right clinician without bouncing around,

00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:49.539
you know,

00:52:49.579 --> 00:52:51.262
for three to six months and

00:52:51.302 --> 00:52:53.264
seeing multiple specialists.

00:52:54.447 --> 00:52:55.610
Well, it sounds like a good team.

00:52:55.869 --> 00:52:56.710
And here's the simple way to

00:52:56.731 --> 00:52:58.514
know that is without being

00:52:58.554 --> 00:52:59.855
prompted and without coordinating,

00:53:00.036 --> 00:53:01.197
you both essentially said

00:53:01.358 --> 00:53:02.780
access in different ways

00:53:02.820 --> 00:53:04.382
for different people, uh,

00:53:04.402 --> 00:53:05.262
for different reasons,

00:53:05.342 --> 00:53:06.905
but your goal in five years

00:53:06.945 --> 00:53:08.807
is increase access in different ways.

00:53:09.307 --> 00:53:11.190
So I think that that shows some, uh,

00:53:12.291 --> 00:53:12.913
some alignment.

00:53:13.773 --> 00:53:15.213
Well, thanks so much for coming on here.

00:53:16.574 --> 00:53:18.097
My goal for success for not

00:53:18.117 --> 00:53:18.976
just this episode,

00:53:18.996 --> 00:53:19.998
but for the five that we're

00:53:20.018 --> 00:53:22.380
doing in this series is in five years,

00:53:22.420 --> 00:53:24.621
if someone DMs me and says, hey,

00:53:24.840 --> 00:53:26.523
I heard your interview with

00:53:27.023 --> 00:53:29.063
this person and look what I've done.

00:53:29.204 --> 00:53:30.204
How cool would that be?

00:53:30.505 --> 00:53:31.065
So for me,

00:53:31.106 --> 00:53:32.646
it's someone hearing it and then

00:53:32.666 --> 00:53:34.047
being able to say, you know,

00:53:34.068 --> 00:53:34.929
I've heard it enough.

00:53:35.929 --> 00:53:36.889
I've heard these stories.

00:53:37.289 --> 00:53:37.851
Why not me?

00:53:37.931 --> 00:53:38.570
Why not this?

00:53:38.731 --> 00:53:39.391
Why not now?

00:53:39.791 --> 00:53:40.733
So that's success for me.

00:53:42.253 --> 00:53:42.434
Cool.

00:53:42.775 --> 00:53:43.358
That's awesome.

00:53:43.619 --> 00:53:44.443
Thanks for having us.

00:53:45.286 --> 00:53:45.989
That is...