The $10,000 Grant That Became $10 Million

WEBVTT

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You're listening to the PT Podcast,

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where smart people in healthcare come to

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make noise.

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Here's your host, Jimmy McKay.

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I said we were going to be live

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here a lot from APTA's CSF in Anaheim,

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and we are.

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And there we are.

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Becky Craig,

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thank you for coming to the show.

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Thank you.

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And dropping by.

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You're busy over there.

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You're elbow rubbing.

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You're schmoozing.

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I'm trying.

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You're doing these things.

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So your background was in research,

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or is it pronounced research?

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Is that...

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Depends on which part of the country

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you're from.

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Is that the pinky in the air version

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of I'm into the research?

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Either one is highly acceptable.

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So you had a pretty distinguished career

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at Arcadia University.

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I did.

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In Pennsylvania.

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And you somehow slipped me in the side

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door to be on the board of trustees

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for a really great organization that I was

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lucky enough to be exposed to as a

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student because of a faculty member.

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Right.

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Right.

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which is the Foundation for Physical

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Therapy Research.

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So for people who don't know what that

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is, what do they do?

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What is the big goal?

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What is the North Star of the foundation?

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The biggest goal is to collect evidence to

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determine if what physical therapists do

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really works.

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The proof.

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The proof.

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In the pudding.

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That's exactly right.

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And it's not to study to determine that

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it will work.

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It's to determine if it works,

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which is a big difference.

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So you have to be unbiased to do

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the research and you have to have a

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lot of money.

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And so that's the ultimate goal.

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We've come so far since nineteen seventy

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nine,

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which is when it was started with Charles

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Magistro.

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And he said he imagined at some point

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that we would have twenty five million

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dollars as an annulment.

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And now we have thirty one.

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So so we have surpassed his vision,

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which is remarkable.

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So it's just so much fun.

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And it took all that time to train

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researchers because physical therapy

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really is a clinical practice.

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And so to attract people to.

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into a field that is almost antithetical

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to clinical practice and go through that

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training and then take that training and

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apply it back takes a long time.

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And in nineteen seventy nine,

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there weren't a lot of programs that

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trained to do physical therapy research.

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So I went to a medical school physiology

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lab.

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Others went to anatomy labs.

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Others did basic animal research because

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that's how we could get trained.

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Yeah.

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Now you can go to a school where

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the faculty members are doing physical

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therapy research.

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And they're not only looking at sort of

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why things work,

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but now they're able to say,

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does it work?

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And then finally, is it cost effective?

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So it's a huge shift since nineteen

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seventy.

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So when people listening who are not in

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research.

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get to say, well, the literature,

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the research says a lot of that,

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not all of it,

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but a decent amount of it starts with

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grants from the foundation.

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Yes.

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So it's so cool.

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So back to your question.

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The purpose is to train investigators and

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to provide small grants to give them pilot

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data so that they can launch their career

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in getting funds from the government or

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other foundations that are much larger

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than ours.

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To create sustainability.

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Correct.

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We're going to give you this.

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But we don't want you to keep coming

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back to us forever.

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The goal is to give you this,

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and that's your start.

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That's right.

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We're a leverage.

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When we do that,

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what does the research of our own

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researchers look like?

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They go on to get more funding.

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Oh, yes.

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Yes.

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Something like six hundred million

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dollars.

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Something around that.

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Yeah, something like that.

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Follow on funding.

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Exactly right.

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Let me make sure I get this right.

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We have given out X amount of funds.

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The people that we give that to wind

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up going on getting more funds from other

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We've created researchers and they go on

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and get more funds to do more research

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about our profession.

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Yes, and I'll use me as an example.

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So I started out with a ten thousand

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dollar grant from the foundation to do my

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research and the last grant that I had

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was ten million dollars as a co-principal

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investigator from the government.

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So that's a big investment that we've

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made.

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The foundation was the first domino and

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that led to domino after domino.

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I'm going to go in a different direction.

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I've heard this name a lot,

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even when I've been on the board.

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I've heard stories.

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But who is Charles Magician?

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And not just his resume.

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Who is the person?

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It's hard to think about how to talk

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about him.

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His father was a shoemaker.

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So he said he had to make sure

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that his children knew how to make shoes.

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And that's what he always talked about

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with the profession.

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He wanted physical therapists who knew how

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to do physical therapy.

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He was a pharmacist aide.

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I think that's what it was called in

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the military.

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And he was on a ship where there

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weren't a lot of other health care

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professionals.

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So he got to help with surgeries.

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It was it.

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And that gave him insight into what you

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could do in medicine.

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But he decided to become a physical

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therapist.

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And he knew what our skill sets were

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and throughout his career tried to push us

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into roles that were beyond just doing

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technical stuff, not being technicians,

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but being leaders.

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And he saw the future is brighter if

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we can produce our own research and

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researchers.

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Right.

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To make us professionals.

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Right.

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We needed a body of knowledge.

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So he just was amazing.

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So there's a lot of people who might

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be listening or have done research who

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might not know his name,

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but they felt the ripples of the things

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that he did.

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Oh, yeah.

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I think so.

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I think so.

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Yeah.

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And certainly we do.

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We have a Charles Magistro grant.

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Correct.

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Because people have given money in his

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name to develop an endowment to support

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Charles Magistro.

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Let's talk to someone specific right now.

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Someone who I call them,

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they're on the edge of the diving board.

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They're like, okay,

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I've heard about this thing called

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research.

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Seems interesting to me.

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I don't know how to get started.

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Where would you send someone who's been

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around but doesn't have a person to go

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to?

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They don't have a person like you in

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their Rolodex.

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What are some suggestions you'd say to

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that person who has maybe the desire and

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just wants to know where to get started?

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There's so many ways,

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so many different ways.

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So if you're working in an academic

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center,

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you're in a hospital in an academic

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center,

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then I would go to pick a department

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that aligns with your interests.

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So if you're interested in understanding

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movement,

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then see whether there are investigators

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in the university that are doing movement.

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If you can't do that because you're

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nervous,

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I'd call the foundation and ask for

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connections.

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And people can do that?

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Yes, absolutely people can do that.

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And what will happen is that they'll

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refer, based on where people live,

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opportunities.

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You know people who know people who know

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people.

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Yes, exactly.

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Because that's the most wonderful thing

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about our profession.

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Everybody's connected and willing to help.

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Pretty willing.

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The batting average is pretty high asking

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people to help.

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Yes, I think so.

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The way I got exposed to the foundation

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was through...

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competition, I don't like losing.

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I mean, I don't mind losing,

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but I definitely don't like not showing

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up.

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So this was sort of put in front

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of me as a little bit of a

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challenge,

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which is good because that's what it's

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called.

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And the challenge for us was,

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and the profession is,

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how many dollars can each academic program

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in the profession make and bring?

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uh i decided to do a well i

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said we're gonna do a lot of work

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for one day and we did a five

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k and schools do a lot of different

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things and and the program is called the

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marquette channel right where i should say

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the marquette delaware yes this year

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delaware market delaware market

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And what this is, listen,

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I'll break it down for you.

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This is a fundraising event with bragging

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rights on the line every single year.

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And it's been going on for a long

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time.

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You don't have to be able to raise

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a million dollars to be a participating

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organization, participating school.

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But you've been around before the

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challenge and now.

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And why was it so sort of innovative

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and impactful when it first came around?

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I think when you think about a foundation

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with the mission of supporting research,

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you want it to be sustainable.

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So you have to develop the next

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generation.

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And so the thought at the time was

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if students were engaged in fundraising

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for the foundation,

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first they would learn what the foundation

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does so that if they were interested in

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research,

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they would have heard about this as a...

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Soft exposure, right?

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Yep.

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And then the other was to help them

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understand that giving is really important

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and that the foundation exists because of

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donations with the hope that we could grow

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them up to become donors.

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Yeah.

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And in that haystack,

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we shake out a couple of needles and

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a couple of research.

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Now, here's a weakness.

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Here's a problem.

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is donating now,

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we know how research works.

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I mean, you do, I say we,

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I mean you.

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It takes a while to see the results

00:09:50.442 --> 00:09:50.822
of that.

00:09:51.322 --> 00:09:53.065
But if we stop funding research,

00:09:53.125 --> 00:09:54.527
nothing's gonna happen the first day,

00:09:54.626 --> 00:09:56.008
or the first week, or the first month.

00:09:56.207 --> 00:09:57.168
But you'll notice that,

00:09:58.136 --> 00:10:00.839
pause in funding a year, five years,

00:10:00.899 --> 00:10:01.159
ten years,

00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:03.020
and it's going to take even longer to

00:10:03.081 --> 00:10:04.461
get back.

00:10:04.763 --> 00:10:06.864
So how do you communicate the need for

00:10:06.903 --> 00:10:10.086
continued when maybe the feedback loop

00:10:10.147 --> 00:10:11.028
isn't as fast?

00:10:11.087 --> 00:10:13.090
How do you explain why it's so imperative

00:10:13.190 --> 00:10:14.149
not to cut off funding?

00:10:15.091 --> 00:10:15.871
I don't know how you...

00:10:18.634 --> 00:10:20.196
You have to, first of all,

00:10:20.216 --> 00:10:21.437
you have to value research.

00:10:21.657 --> 00:10:23.337
You have to, as a clinician,

00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:26.620
the evidence has to mean something to you.

00:10:26.760 --> 00:10:29.663
You have to think that it helps guide

00:10:29.682 --> 00:10:30.423
your practice.

00:10:31.783 --> 00:10:34.206
And if you believe where that comes from,

00:10:34.405 --> 00:10:35.886
then you want it to continue.

00:10:37.548 --> 00:10:38.928
And without funding,

00:10:39.548 --> 00:10:41.509
everything's changing so dramatically.

00:10:41.529 --> 00:10:42.931
We don't have one practice.

00:10:43.010 --> 00:10:45.152
The practice has changed so dramatically,

00:10:45.172 --> 00:10:47.693
we have to continue doing the research in

00:10:47.754 --> 00:10:49.475
order to determine whether or not the new

00:10:49.514 --> 00:10:50.215
stuff works.

00:10:51.375 --> 00:10:52.596
So without funding, then,

00:10:53.017 --> 00:10:53.917
we're not going to be able to look.

00:10:53.956 --> 00:10:54.236
And again,

00:10:54.297 --> 00:10:55.557
you won't notice it on day one or

00:10:55.577 --> 00:10:55.977
month one.

00:10:56.118 --> 00:10:57.599
And then you won't get reimbursed.

00:10:58.219 --> 00:11:00.441
It always comes down to payment.

00:11:01.160 --> 00:11:01.921
Then you're not going to get...

00:11:02.522 --> 00:11:04.342
There's no evidence to support this

00:11:04.403 --> 00:11:05.984
intervention, so why should...

00:11:06.803 --> 00:11:08.965
Medicare pay for it or insurance

00:11:08.985 --> 00:11:09.465
companies.

00:11:09.485 --> 00:11:09.904
I mean,

00:11:09.924 --> 00:11:13.725
so it all is so tied together.

00:11:13.826 --> 00:11:15.046
It's just it's invisible.

00:11:15.125 --> 00:11:15.946
It's hard to see.

00:11:15.985 --> 00:11:16.746
You really got to look.

00:11:16.846 --> 00:11:17.807
You're exactly right.

00:11:17.846 --> 00:11:18.787
Without it, you're in trouble.

00:11:19.187 --> 00:11:19.767
Big trouble.

00:11:19.907 --> 00:11:20.508
Yeah.

00:11:20.528 --> 00:11:20.868
What is.

00:11:21.508 --> 00:11:21.648
Well,

00:11:21.687 --> 00:11:23.148
I think we've seen some of that this

00:11:23.207 --> 00:11:27.028
year with or last year with the changes

00:11:27.129 --> 00:11:30.090
in government leadership and grants going

00:11:30.129 --> 00:11:32.350
away that were people's.

00:11:33.390 --> 00:11:35.131
had whole teams together who lost their

00:11:35.152 --> 00:11:38.714
grants and that dispersed the whole team

00:11:39.193 --> 00:11:42.275
so that even with a reversal in funding,

00:11:42.576 --> 00:11:43.616
the teams dispersed.

00:11:44.017 --> 00:11:45.278
Some of them are working in Europe,

00:11:45.317 --> 00:11:46.177
some are in Canada.

00:11:47.278 --> 00:11:48.620
You've lost your impetus.

00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:49.600
Institutional knowledge.

00:11:49.940 --> 00:11:52.741
You knock a train off the track,

00:11:52.841 --> 00:11:53.721
putting it right back on,

00:11:53.761 --> 00:11:54.462
it's a standstill.

00:11:54.482 --> 00:11:56.203
You've got to get that going.

00:11:56.943 --> 00:11:58.346
You've been with the foundation for...

00:11:58.605 --> 00:11:58.745
Ever.

00:11:58.765 --> 00:11:59.025
Okay, good.

00:11:59.105 --> 00:12:01.489
Got it.

00:12:01.509 --> 00:12:03.671
So you understand institutional knowledge.

00:12:03.691 --> 00:12:03.831
Yes.

00:12:04.291 --> 00:12:07.014
What would success look like in five or

00:12:07.053 --> 00:12:08.875
ten years from now?

00:12:08.895 --> 00:12:10.476
What's your BHAG, your big, hairy,

00:12:10.538 --> 00:12:11.398
audacious goal?

00:12:13.139 --> 00:12:14.301
This gives you a chance to be sort

00:12:14.321 --> 00:12:15.221
of like Charles Matricio,

00:12:15.282 --> 00:12:17.464
set a bar really high that maybe we

00:12:17.484 --> 00:12:19.066
can't get over, but we will.

00:12:25.331 --> 00:12:27.634
So I love the idea of being able

00:12:27.653 --> 00:12:29.796
to provide small amounts of money to do

00:12:29.836 --> 00:12:32.498
pilot studies that then leverage into

00:12:32.538 --> 00:12:33.278
larger grants.

00:12:35.400 --> 00:12:38.203
We are interested in doing research that

00:12:39.485 --> 00:12:41.626
won't necessarily be funded by someone

00:12:41.687 --> 00:12:41.947
else.

00:12:42.267 --> 00:12:43.107
So for example,

00:12:43.207 --> 00:12:45.370
our whole interest in cost effectiveness

00:12:45.429 --> 00:12:45.669
work,

00:12:46.530 --> 00:12:47.873
which is so important to us,

00:12:48.113 --> 00:12:49.634
I don't know that you can go.

00:12:50.235 --> 00:12:51.736
I know you can't right now go to

00:12:51.876 --> 00:12:53.259
NIH and ask for grant money.

00:12:53.899 --> 00:12:56.581
So a dream would be to have a

00:12:56.743 --> 00:12:59.566
big grant so that we could fund

00:12:59.725 --> 00:13:02.229
cost-effectiveness research as part of the

00:13:02.269 --> 00:13:03.230
foundation's dream.

00:13:03.481 --> 00:13:04.943
And if we can't go to NIH or

00:13:04.964 --> 00:13:06.125
other big organizations,

00:13:06.905 --> 00:13:07.846
where does that money come from?

00:13:07.865 --> 00:13:08.647
Is that us?

00:13:08.787 --> 00:13:09.528
It's us.

00:13:09.567 --> 00:13:10.349
They're around here.

00:13:10.469 --> 00:13:10.990
Exactly.

00:13:11.330 --> 00:13:13.852
And so to develop collaboration,

00:13:14.033 --> 00:13:15.793
so it would be more than the foundation.

00:13:15.855 --> 00:13:17.876
It could be partnerships with vendors.

00:13:17.897 --> 00:13:18.037
Sure.

00:13:18.456 --> 00:13:20.919
It could be partnerships with other small

00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:21.941
foundations.

00:13:21.980 --> 00:13:22.160
Right.

00:13:22.821 --> 00:13:24.822
if the interest is to look at

00:13:24.883 --> 00:13:25.623
cost-effectiveness.

00:13:25.643 --> 00:13:27.024
A shared interest is a shared direction.

00:13:27.043 --> 00:13:27.423
Correct.

00:13:27.464 --> 00:13:30.105
Many hands make lighter pockets.

00:13:30.405 --> 00:13:30.865
Exactly.

00:13:31.285 --> 00:13:31.846
Or heavier pockets.

00:13:32.947 --> 00:13:33.648
A heavier pocket.

00:13:33.668 --> 00:13:34.048
You're right.

00:13:34.067 --> 00:13:35.229
All right.

00:13:35.489 --> 00:13:36.308
Every episode that we do,

00:13:36.330 --> 00:13:37.350
we have this thing called the parting

00:13:37.389 --> 00:13:37.769
shot.

00:13:38.311 --> 00:13:39.951
That's just your last chance for a mic

00:13:39.971 --> 00:13:40.572
drop moment.

00:13:40.951 --> 00:13:42.832
Is there something you've always left

00:13:43.114 --> 00:13:44.634
students with when you were in the

00:13:44.654 --> 00:13:45.595
classroom more regularly?

00:13:45.615 --> 00:13:46.576
Like, hey, listen,

00:13:46.676 --> 00:13:47.755
I know I'm going to get one shot

00:13:47.796 --> 00:13:49.798
at leaving my one soapbox statement.

00:13:49.817 --> 00:13:50.577
Did you have one of those?

00:13:50.618 --> 00:13:51.839
Was there like a North Star for you?

00:13:53.086 --> 00:13:53.866
Don't make enemies.

00:13:54.187 --> 00:13:55.028
Ooh, that's smart.

00:13:55.729 --> 00:13:56.009
Yeah.

00:13:56.269 --> 00:13:56.831
That's it.

00:13:56.990 --> 00:13:59.313
It takes effort to make enemies.

00:14:00.908 --> 00:14:01.590
No, no, no.

00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:03.210
Well, I feel like it does because, like,

00:14:03.269 --> 00:14:04.750
it's easier to – I feel like it's

00:14:04.870 --> 00:14:06.871
easier just to be neutral or kind than

00:14:06.932 --> 00:14:07.633
it is to be an enemy.

00:14:07.653 --> 00:14:08.173
Well, of course.

00:14:08.293 --> 00:14:08.873
That's true.

00:14:09.013 --> 00:14:09.312
And I'm like,

00:14:09.452 --> 00:14:10.953
why are you burning calories to burn a

00:14:10.974 --> 00:14:11.374
bridge?

00:14:11.453 --> 00:14:12.774
Because it's just not natural.

00:14:12.835 --> 00:14:14.115
It's not, yeah.

00:14:14.155 --> 00:14:14.916
Perfect.

00:14:14.975 --> 00:14:15.355
Becky, Craig,

00:14:15.375 --> 00:14:16.417
appreciate you coming on here talking

00:14:16.437 --> 00:14:17.576
about something that's very important for

00:14:17.596 --> 00:14:18.116
our profession,

00:14:18.496 --> 00:14:19.577
something that's probably a little bit

00:14:19.658 --> 00:14:22.698
invisible that we'd like to make more

00:14:22.739 --> 00:14:23.100
visible.

00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:23.200
Yes.

00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:24.500
Let's change and reverse that.

00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:24.580
Yes.

00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:25.441
Appreciate you doing that.

00:14:25.461 --> 00:14:25.760
Thank you.

00:14:25.780 --> 00:14:27.402
Thanks for being live here from CSM.

00:14:27.741 --> 00:14:28.121
Thank you.